Is there a non-"pulsing" progressive controller out there?
01-20-2005, 10:22 AM
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Is there a non-"pulsing" progressive controller out there? What the topic says. To my understanding a progressive controller pulses the solenoid to achive the desired amount of nitrous flow. I was wondering if there is a controller that sends a certian amount of voltage to a solenoid so that is only opens halfway (or whatever % desired). Is that even possible, or do solenoids have to be closed or fully open, therefore the need for pulsing? Just worried about life of the solenoid and was thinking this would be a better way to go if possible.
01-20-2005, 10:42 AM
#3
I dont believe so.As long as you have a quality solenoid Like Nitrous Express it can take the controller with no problem.
This is one of those things you think about before buying BRAND X because of price.
I have lots of freinds and customers running the maximizer including myself with no problems.
Dave
This is one of those things you think about before buying BRAND X because of price.
I have lots of freinds and customers running the maximizer including myself with no problems.
Dave
01-20-2005, 11:06 AM
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i dont think it's possible becuase if i'm correct the noid is basicly a metal plunger thats magnet activated so with an electromagnet you'll only get consistant results through pulsing or redesigning the noid. it would need diffrent engagement positions rather than off or on.
01-20-2005, 02:35 PM
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Not only do they not exist now, but I see issues with them even if they did. For example, the amount that such a solenoid would need to open to deliver 50% of a 100 hp jet would not be the same as how far it would need to open to deliver 50% of a 200 hp jet. The latter case would have to open a little wider.
John
John
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01-20-2005, 02:53 PM
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They are not out but I have been looking into this and will continue to do so. I have worked on aircraft for 15 years and have seen some neat valves that would do the job. I have yet to find one that will work at the nitrous pressures we need for a reasonable price. There are things on the market that would work. Not only would they work but they would be much more precise than anything out there currently. Do a google search under Mass Flow Controllers. They are used in the indutrial gas and manufacturing process world. Not only do they have a needle valve that opens and closes VERY fast with an electrical signal...they also measure the MASS that is flowing past. So theoretically you could have this setup to deliver a variable amount of mass over either time or rpm...and it would deliver this mass regardless of bottle pressure. You could do one for nitrous and one for fuel. It would be adjustable via the programmer. It would also adjust on the fly during a run for bottle pressure drop since its target is mass flow rate and will change the valve orifice to compensate for the desired mass flow rate. But they are $$$$$$. Someone needs to just come up with a cheap servo valve that can be opened and close rapidly enough with a 0-5 volt signal. From there you could adapt that to something like the NX maximizer without pulsing noids.
The main restriction is cost.
The main restriction is cost.
01-20-2005, 05:47 PM
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the pulses are not quite what you are thinking they are happening at like 1000 times a second. the way they are controlled is the only realistic way to control a dc motor or solenoid. Basically you send a pulse at 1000 times a second and vary the amount of time it is on compared to off. so for 40% the pulse would be on 40% of the time and off 60%. What this does is allow the solenoid to have full power to open but not open fully the same way it works to control the speed of a dc motor. it works quite well and is reasonably accurate as far as the precision of control.
What this is called is pulse width modulation and is a very common thing. It isn't hard to build a controller that can output those signals. I have built my own rpm based nitrous controller to do that on my car, it cost me around $50 in parts to make it and it works as good as any other system you can buy. There are schematics on how to make a PWM signal using some basic electronic components, there is no difference in driving a motor and solenoid so the circuits work the same.
What this is called is pulse width modulation and is a very common thing. It isn't hard to build a controller that can output those signals. I have built my own rpm based nitrous controller to do that on my car, it cost me around $50 in parts to make it and it works as good as any other system you can buy. There are schematics on how to make a PWM signal using some basic electronic components, there is no difference in driving a motor and solenoid so the circuits work the same.
01-20-2005, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by sbr523
the pulses are not quite what you are thinking they are happening at like 1000 times a second. the way they are controlled is the only realistic way to control a dc motor or solenoid. Basically you send a pulse at 1000 times a second and vary the amount of time it is on compared to off. so for 40% the pulse would be on 40% of the time and off 60%. What this does is allow the solenoid to have full power to open but not open fully the same way it works to control the speed of a dc motor. it works quite well and is reasonably accurate as far as the precision of control.
What this is called is pulse width modulation and is a very common thing. It isn't hard to build a controller that can output those signals. I have built my own rpm based nitrous controller to do that on my car, it cost me around $50 in parts to make it and it works as good as any other system you can buy. There are schematics on how to make a PWM signal using some basic electronic components, there is no difference in driving a motor and solenoid so the circuits work the same.
What this is called is pulse width modulation and is a very common thing. It isn't hard to build a controller that can output those signals. I have built my own rpm based nitrous controller to do that on my car, it cost me around $50 in parts to make it and it works as good as any other system you can buy. There are schematics on how to make a PWM signal using some basic electronic components, there is no difference in driving a motor and solenoid so the circuits work the same.
The 4L60E transmissions use a PWM solenoid on the valve body as well.
01-20-2005, 06:49 PM
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not to hijack someone else's thread but the controller I built was special built to fit my car so it was a really simple circuit using a small microcontroller. I did end up making it all fancy with an lcd display and built in mp3 player 
but if there is enough interest I could probably rip all the extra crap out of it and make it as simple as possible to construct so that pretty much anyone that can solder would be able to make it. I figure if it doesnt use an lcd or anything it could probably be built for a lot less but then would need a computer to set the rpms and stuff so it would be a bit more of a pain to use it.
I have been toying with the idea of selling these things, If I get a custom case made up and do a bit more work on protecting the inputs and polish the user interface on the lcd I could prob still sell them for under 200$ and still make a tidy profit. Maybe I could do 2 setups one simple DIY kit and a complete all bells and whistles setup.
but if there is enough interest I could probably rip all the extra crap out of it and make it as simple as possible to construct so that pretty much anyone that can solder would be able to make it. I figure if it doesnt use an lcd or anything it could probably be built for a lot less but then would need a computer to set the rpms and stuff so it would be a bit more of a pain to use it. I have been toying with the idea of selling these things, If I get a custom case made up and do a bit more work on protecting the inputs and polish the user interface on the lcd I could prob still sell them for under 200$ and still make a tidy profit. Maybe I could do 2 setups one simple DIY kit and a complete all bells and whistles setup.
01-20-2005, 08:15 PM
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a basic controller would use an atmel attiny13 microcontroller and a ips521 mosfet, with a few other minor components it would probably cost around $25 to build if a computer was used to configure it. If I get some time in the next week or so I might draw up a simple circuit and stuff so that anyone that wants a simple window switch/progessive controller can make their own.
01-20-2005, 10:51 PM
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I'd definately be interested in taking a look at whatever you're willing to share The LED idea sounds useful... I shouldn't have a problem with building one myself 
The LED idea sounds useful... I shouldn't have a problem with building one myself
01-21-2005, 01:16 AM
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ok after playing around with the idea a bit and hooking a scope to the tach signal on my camaro. It looks like it would be easy to hook up something to that car. The system I built was for my kit car so it has a whole different setup than what a normal type of car would need. on that car it has a microswitch that goes on the front suspension to cut the nitrous and ignition when it is about to lift the front wheels, being a mid engine car it is bad for that for a ls1 that isnt really a problem for most normal people. for this setup it would probably be better with a simple rpm based activation and a cutoff rpm. I figure it would be possible to monitor an auto trans and have different curves for each gear, not sure how that would work on the 6spd. maybe monitoring the driveshaft or one of the abs sensors to get vehicle speed and set a nitrous curve based on actual car speed and just use the rpms for window switch type of stuff.
The reason I was wanting to make it simple was because the only problem I have with sticking the whole thing under something like the gpl license is the menuing system I have been using was co-developed for another company and I could not release the code for it on my own. Without a nice menu system it would be a lot of work to recreate the display and get this thing together and I really don't have a huge amount of time to work on this thing. Putting together a progressive controller isn't hard so if I don't bother with the lcd and menu system then it could be made a lot easier and cheaper.
anyway the choice of the controller can make a big difference in what is possible using a more expensive controller can get the system up to 3 independent outputs and have enough pins left over for inputs or outputs to be able to control or monitor up to 20 or so other things. but the more added on the harder it would be for everyone to make, the basic rpm system could be done on a breadboard without having to etch a board but adding a bunch of features would make it very complicated and all but require it to be etched to make it reliable.
Here is the basic rpm based controller breadboarded out:
btw I am not an electrical engineer, I started in that program in college then switched to physics and chem and a masters in computers, so I guess you could say i am well rounded or broke spending that much money going to college.....
for a ls1 that isnt really a problem for most normal people. for this setup it would probably be better with a simple rpm based activation and a cutoff rpm. I figure it would be possible to monitor an auto trans and have different curves for each gear, not sure how that would work on the 6spd. maybe monitoring the driveshaft or one of the abs sensors to get vehicle speed and set a nitrous curve based on actual car speed and just use the rpms for window switch type of stuff.The reason I was wanting to make it simple was because the only problem I have with sticking the whole thing under something like the gpl license is the menuing system I have been using was co-developed for another company and I could not release the code for it on my own. Without a nice menu system it would be a lot of work to recreate the display and get this thing together and I really don't have a huge amount of time to work on this thing. Putting together a progressive controller isn't hard so if I don't bother with the lcd and menu system then it could be made a lot easier and cheaper.
anyway the choice of the controller can make a big difference in what is possible using a more expensive controller can get the system up to 3 independent outputs and have enough pins left over for inputs or outputs to be able to control or monitor up to 20 or so other things. but the more added on the harder it would be for everyone to make, the basic rpm system could be done on a breadboard without having to etch a board but adding a bunch of features would make it very complicated and all but require it to be etched to make it reliable.
Here is the basic rpm based controller breadboarded out:
btw I am not an electrical engineer, I started in that program in college then switched to physics and chem and a masters in computers, so I guess you could say i am well rounded
or broke spending that much money going to college..... 
01-21-2005, 06:29 AM
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Wow. Interesting info. Yea this is getting deep for sure. But keep going
Question, how does a Idle Air Control (IAC) solenoid work then? I thought it was able to open a certain amount to let air bypass to maintain certain idle speeds. Does an IAC solenoid also get pulsed then?
Question, how does a Idle Air Control (IAC) solenoid work then? I thought it was able to open a certain amount to let air bypass to maintain certain idle speeds. Does an IAC solenoid also get pulsed then?
01-21-2005, 08:47 AM
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Wow, you guys are getting serious about building a controller. Thats cool. If you need a solenoid to test let me know. Cold Fusion Nitrous Solenoids handle pulsing with no issues Just like all the other guys. We have tested them and they hold up great.
