Nitrous Discussion Concerning Chemical Makeup
12-14-2005, 12:04 PM
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Nitrous Discussion Concerning Chemical Makeup Ok, here's the reason behind this thread. There are rumors in the pits of the Pro Mod world that one of the nitrous cars is using nitrous that isn't N2O, but rather a variation of it, possibly N2O2 or even N2O3. I'm not going to say any particulars about the racer because I don't want to fuel the rumor if it's not true. I know this sounds a little crazy at first, however....
After doing some research I have found that it is in fact possible to make nitric dioxide (N2O2) almost as easily as N2O is produced. Knowing that, if you could spray this new chemical into the engine with fuel you would be displacing twice the amount of ambient air with pure oxygen that you normally displace with N2O. Therefore you would be able to make much more power for the same given volume in the cylinder. The only downside to using N2O2 is that it is a little harder to burn so it would require a lot more fuel. From what has been seen on the Pro Mod car in question there is a constant flame from the header during every run, but without any popping or banging that you sometimes get when there's a flame in the exhaust of a nitrous car. This contributes to the rumor since there would need to be a ton of fuel being dumped into the motor in order to have enough to keep a constant flame in the header, much the same as an alcohol dragster or fuel car does.
My interest in this is mainly for small tired race cars and cars with smaller engines that simply can't get the volume of nitrous and fuel into the engine that the mountain motored Pro Mods can. Anyone's thoughts on this are appreciated. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anywhere to buy this chemical from. If anyone happens to know of a supplier that could get this chemical for me please let me know.
After doing some research I have found that it is in fact possible to make nitric dioxide (N2O2) almost as easily as N2O is produced. Knowing that, if you could spray this new chemical into the engine with fuel you would be displacing twice the amount of ambient air with pure oxygen that you normally displace with N2O. Therefore you would be able to make much more power for the same given volume in the cylinder. The only downside to using N2O2 is that it is a little harder to burn so it would require a lot more fuel. From what has been seen on the Pro Mod car in question there is a constant flame from the header during every run, but without any popping or banging that you sometimes get when there's a flame in the exhaust of a nitrous car. This contributes to the rumor since there would need to be a ton of fuel being dumped into the motor in order to have enough to keep a constant flame in the header, much the same as an alcohol dragster or fuel car does.
My interest in this is mainly for small tired race cars and cars with smaller engines that simply can't get the volume of nitrous and fuel into the engine that the mountain motored Pro Mods can. Anyone's thoughts on this are appreciated. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anywhere to buy this chemical from. If anyone happens to know of a supplier that could get this chemical for me please let me know.
12-14-2005, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 860 Performance
my brain hurts
I just need to find a supplier of this stuff!
12-14-2005, 12:31 PM
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Interesting. Looking at it though it appears that NO2, N2O2 and many others are very harmful if exposed to the lungs.
Looks like the best place to get it is as a byproduct of combustion........
Looks like the best place to get it is as a byproduct of combustion........
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12-14-2005, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by 93LS1RX7
Interesting. Looking at it though it appears that NO2, N2O2 and many others are very harmful if exposed to the lungs.
Looks like the best place to get it is as a byproduct of combustion........
Looks like the best place to get it is as a byproduct of combustion........
You are correct about the variations being a byproduct of combustion. All of the variations that I found (N2O2 up to N2O5) use a metal of some kind combined with heat and either sulphuric acid or nitric acid.
I must thank Macon and his wife for getting me going in the right direction. She provided the chemical equations of producing the variations which gave me the right info to look for in other media.
12-14-2005, 01:07 PM
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Good link here: http://www.c-f-c.com/supportdocs/nitrogen_oxi.htm
for the record you want to look for dinitrogen dioxide if you are looking for N2O2
for the record you want to look for dinitrogen dioxide if you are looking for N2O2
, I wonder if that would be a tuning nightmare, considering the MAF and fueling tables?
12-14-2005, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
I don't remember reading anything about it being harmful to the lungs, but looking at how the variations are produced it wouldn't surprise me at all.
You are correct about the variations being a byproduct of combustion. All of the variations that I found (N2O2 up to N2O5) use a metal of some kind combined with heat and either sulphuric acid or nitric acid.
I must thank Macon and his wife for getting me going in the right direction. She provided the chemical equations of producing the variations which gave me the right info to look for in other media.
You are correct about the variations being a byproduct of combustion. All of the variations that I found (N2O2 up to N2O5) use a metal of some kind combined with heat and either sulphuric acid or nitric acid.
I must thank Macon and his wife for getting me going in the right direction. She provided the chemical equations of producing the variations which gave me the right info to look for in other media.
12-14-2005, 01:36 PM
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N2O is at least fairly close to air composition, just
a tad more oxygen. N2O2 would really alter the
chemistry. N2O5? Yikes.
And that would be some mean stuff to handle, I
bet. It probably wants to decompose even worse
than hydrogen peroxide.
I'd definitely want to be putting it through a motor
that somebody else pays for :o
a tad more oxygen. N2O2 would really alter the
chemistry. N2O5? Yikes.
And that would be some mean stuff to handle, I
bet. It probably wants to decompose even worse
than hydrogen peroxide.
I'd definitely want to be putting it through a motor
that somebody else pays for :o
12-14-2005, 02:01 PM
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Ok my thoughts, for n202... Simple its just twice the oxygen, so you would need to double the amount of fuel.. But the burn rate could also be double, meaning a tuning might mare if that rate was though the roof and then timing comes to play...
Now this would only help cars that were maxing there systems out... An engine can only move X amount air. So if you are maxing that amount out that is where this would come to play... So if you are playing with under 400 hp do not waste your time..
Now large hp kits lets say multi-stage 300+ per stage then you are in need of this. This would solve the intake saturation problem that has plauged the nitrous world for a while...
Ricky
Now this would only help cars that were maxing there systems out... An engine can only move X amount air. So if you are maxing that amount out that is where this would come to play... So if you are playing with under 400 hp do not waste your time..
Now large hp kits lets say multi-stage 300+ per stage then you are in need of this. This would solve the intake saturation problem that has plauged the nitrous world for a while...
Ricky
12-14-2005, 02:30 PM
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I would agree that this would probably be a tuning nightmare for a while, which is funny since the suggested racer has been blowing **** up for a while and just recently got a handle on the tune and is now kicking the crap out of the blower guys at every race.
I also don't think you could use this as a dry system using the MAF. It would either have to be wet or there would have to be some other electronic management system to add fuel. Plus the injector would have to be really big to handle all of the added fuel.
I also don't think you could use this as a dry system using the MAF. It would either have to be wet or there would have to be some other electronic management system to add fuel. Plus the injector would have to be really big to handle all of the added fuel.
12-14-2005, 03:47 PM
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12-14-2005, 09:30 PM
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Most of those substances are not stable enough to run. I very much doubt they are running any of the mentioned substances as some are solids and some break down at room temp.
12-15-2005, 01:06 AM
#20
That is truly wild.. I LOVE seeing innovation and new developments..
But knowing what i read from you Jeremy.. I'd have to say i don't think the average enthusiast or racer could build or own a motor that would even be able to benefit or handle that kind of power and oxygen content. We can only hope more light is shed on this though!
But knowing what i read from you Jeremy.. I'd have to say i don't think the average enthusiast or racer could build or own a motor that would even be able to benefit or handle that kind of power and oxygen content. We can only hope more light is shed on this though!
