Best noid to pulse with?
01-09-2006, 03:03 PM
#41
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Your right 4 min is a long time considering you would only pulse for 1 to 3 sec on a run.
Originally Posted by NXJeremy
The fuel solenoid did it around the 4 min. area, I didn't see when the nitrous solenoid did it. Keep in mind, that was pretty much constant progressive use for 4min. straight and it didn't melt the coil. Another thing that was interesting was that when the fuel solenoid was taken apart it looked almost new, which was surprising.
On a side note, I ment to put it in my earlier post. The seats in the aluminum nitrous solenoids are pressed in and are made from steel so they will seal great in the long run. The fuel noids are machined into the aluminum base since the fuel pressures are no where near that of nitrous pressures. The aluminum seat and the softer material used in the fuel pistons combine to make a great seal, as well as work very well during progressive use.
On a side note, I ment to put it in my earlier post. The seats in the aluminum nitrous solenoids are pressed in and are made from steel so they will seal great in the long run. The fuel noids are machined into the aluminum base since the fuel pressures are no where near that of nitrous pressures. The aluminum seat and the softer material used in the fuel pistons combine to make a great seal, as well as work very well during progressive use.
01-09-2006, 07:33 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
I don't think that there have been solenoids built specifically for progressive use because many of the one's on the market now work great. And while it is true that many of the big names in nitrous racing (Fulton, Jenkins, etc...) just use multiple stages instead of progression they make up a small percentage of the nitrous user market. With small tire racing becoming so popular progressive controllers are finding more and more popularity, not to mention some of the progressive controllers today allow you the ability to make power similar to a turbo car (which turbos seem to be leading the pack in many classes/orginizations). I think it will only be a matter of time before the big guns like Jenkins, Musi, Fulton, Kirk Jr., etc will come out of the past and begin using the great technology that is availible to them. Don't get me wrong, Jenkins is the fastest so he really has no need to mess with success, but I think he could go faster by using some of the progressive technology that is out there.
01-09-2006, 09:15 PM
#43
Originally Posted by Ben R
It's been my experience that there are much more effecient ways to get small-tired, big HP cars down the track than using a progressive controller. Some of it legal, some of it not. Especially with the technology that is going into backhalved cars nowadays. Most of these 10" tired cars 60' in the low 1.0's and can run to the 330' in less than 3 seconds. I can see a progressive making a huge difference in a class limited to a certain amount of nitrous stages, but short of that, I don't think they'll ever be big in racing. Once EFI gets more popular in classes like Outlaw 10.5 and Pro-Street and Pro-Modified the cars will get even quicker off of the starting line. It won't be long before we see a 10.5 car sub 1-second 60'.
Robert
01-09-2006, 10:40 PM
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Ben I think the big racers are missing a little something.
with the multi stages there are alot of time shocking the tires when that 2nd 3rd or even 4th kit turns on. Launch off one and start bringing the power of #2 in right then, allows you to tailor the amount power and time to apply it. only time will tell. Think of it like a turbo car the boost climbs in a transition not all at once. 2 roads in this world which one to take,
Ricky
with the multi stages there are alot of time shocking the tires when that 2nd 3rd or even 4th kit turns on. Launch off one and start bringing the power of #2 in right then, allows you to tailor the amount power and time to apply it. only time will tell. Think of it like a turbo car the boost climbs in a transition not all at once. 2 roads in this world which one to take,
Ricky
01-09-2006, 10:56 PM
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peaks and valleys. It seems with stages the power peaks and valleys from one instant to the next leave alot on the table.
Its kind of a "resolution" type of deal. If you could draw a graph with a timeline being the bottom and the HP going up the left side. There will be a theoretical "perfect" slope of applied power over time VS available traction. It should be smooth. A progressive can apply the power much closer to that perfect slope. 3,4 or 5 stages will always have rough peaks and valleys as power is applied in chunks and maximum HP required vs available traction increases as you gain MPH. Its in between these peaks that additional power could be applied with more control...or more "resolution" that a very well designed and setup progressive styel setup may be able to deliver.
Atleast that sounds good...lol.
Its kind of a "resolution" type of deal. If you could draw a graph with a timeline being the bottom and the HP going up the left side. There will be a theoretical "perfect" slope of applied power over time VS available traction. It should be smooth. A progressive can apply the power much closer to that perfect slope. 3,4 or 5 stages will always have rough peaks and valleys as power is applied in chunks and maximum HP required vs available traction increases as you gain MPH. Its in between these peaks that additional power could be applied with more control...or more "resolution" that a very well designed and setup progressive styel setup may be able to deliver.
Atleast that sounds good...lol.
Last edited by 383LQ4SS; 01-09-2006 at 11:08 PM.
01-09-2006, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by NXRICKY
Ben I think the big racers are missing a little something.
with the multi stages there are alot of time shocking the tires when that 2nd 3rd or even 4th kit turns on. Launch off one and start bringing the power of #2 in right then, allows you to tailor the amount power and time to apply it. only time will tell. Think of it like a turbo car the boost climbs in a transition not all at once. 2 roads in this world which one to take,
Ricky
with the multi stages there are alot of time shocking the tires when that 2nd 3rd or even 4th kit turns on. Launch off one and start bringing the power of #2 in right then, allows you to tailor the amount power and time to apply it. only time will tell. Think of it like a turbo car the boost climbs in a transition not all at once. 2 roads in this world which one to take,
Ricky
In the Outlaw stuff where most of the cars either have a 'Glide or a Lenco/Bruno setup it would be easier, but the small tire would really make that tough too. A Professional racer like Shannon Jenkins or Pat Musi might find a way to make that work, but for the average sportsman guy it's just easier to add time to the delay box on the 2nd kit.
01-09-2006, 11:08 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Ben,
Where is yalls next race and where. I heard thet John bought Sealy and is opening it on the 27th. Suppose to be a big day. You going?
Dave
Where is yalls next race and where. I heard thet John bought Sealy and is opening it on the 27th. Suppose to be a big day. You going?
Dave
Yes Hennessey did buy Sealy out, and I think the 27th is the big grand opening. I have a week-long test session with the Pro-Modified guys sometime around there, but if I'm not out of town testing I'll probably be there.
01-09-2006, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
peaks and valleys. It seems with stages the power peaks and valleys from one instant to the next leave alot on the table.
Its kind of a "resolution" type of deal. If you could draw a graph with a timeline being the bottom and the HP going up the left side. There will be a theoretical "perfect" slope of applied power over time VS available traction. It should be smooth. A progressive can apply the power much closer to that perfect slope. 3,4 or 5 stages will always have rough peaks and valleys as power is applied in chunks and maximum HP required vs available traction increases as you gain MPH. Its in between these peaks that additional power could be applied with more control...or more "resolution" that a very well designed and setup progressive styel setup may be able to deliver.
Atleast that sounds good...lol.
Its kind of a "resolution" type of deal. If you could draw a graph with a timeline being the bottom and the HP going up the left side. There will be a theoretical "perfect" slope of applied power over time VS available traction. It should be smooth. A progressive can apply the power much closer to that perfect slope. 3,4 or 5 stages will always have rough peaks and valleys as power is applied in chunks and maximum HP required vs available traction increases as you gain MPH. Its in between these peaks that additional power could be applied with more control...or more "resolution" that a very well designed and setup progressive styel setup may be able to deliver.
Atleast that sounds good...lol.
I got kinda confused by this but basically you're looking to bring in as much power as possible as quickly as possible. Keeping it smooth is really a function of the converter/clutch setup and the overall chassis. With the clutch deal I've seen some people set up their stages on a clutch switch (Pull a gear, add a kit or two or three LOL) and some people on delay boxes. It seems to work both ways, although personally I think one way is better than the others.
On a street-car that's running on something like a drag radial and basically stock suspension I can see where a progressive controller could help keep the wheel spin down to a minimum, but if you're too conservative with it it could end up costing you some ET.
01-09-2006, 11:21 PM
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Thats a very good point i have worried the same thing im going to progresive and im thinking even if im running a 200 shot im not going to be any faster than i was with 150 do to the 200 not hitting as hard and having a build time to reach peak power..But i dont drive no drag car eather
Originally Posted by Ben R
I got kinda confused by this but basically you're looking to bring in as much power as possible as quickly as possible. Keeping it smooth is really a function of the converter/clutch setup and the overall chassis. With the clutch deal I've seen some people set up their stages on a clutch switch (Pull a gear, add a kit or two or three LOL) and some people on delay boxes. It seems to work both ways, although personally I think one way is better than the others.
On a street-car that's running on something like a drag radial and basically stock suspension I can see where a progressive controller could help keep the wheel spin down to a minimum, but if you're too conservative with it it could end up costing you some ET.
On a street-car that's running on something like a drag radial and basically stock suspension I can see where a progressive controller could help keep the wheel spin down to a minimum, but if you're too conservative with it it could end up costing you some ET.
01-10-2006, 09:26 AM
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BenR- You have some good points. However, progressive controllers are already gaining popularity among small tired racers very quickly. Like Al brought up, if you looked at a graph that showed applied hp over time vs. traction there would be a "perfect" slope, and a progressive controller will get you much much closer to the slope than multiple stages ever will. This is simply because of they way the controller is bringing in the power.
I agree that we'll probably see more cars go to EFI soon due to the amount of control it gives you as well as the wealth of data that can be recorded through EFI. This goes hand in hand with using a progressive controller. With some of todays engine management systems combined with a progressive controller the car will actually "learn" what is the best possible tune and will try to correct itself to reach that tune. Having the progressive controller connected to the engine management software can basically connect the nitrous power directly to the throttle input. This means that if the tires are breaking loose and the driver has to pedal it, then the nitrous power is decreasing and increasing according to the throttle input. This greatly helps with traction control, whereas with multiple stages you either have the power 100% on or off.
With all of the advantages of EFI and progressive technology that's availible I think there will be more teams switching over.....and running faster.
I agree that we'll probably see more cars go to EFI soon due to the amount of control it gives you as well as the wealth of data that can be recorded through EFI. This goes hand in hand with using a progressive controller. With some of todays engine management systems combined with a progressive controller the car will actually "learn" what is the best possible tune and will try to correct itself to reach that tune. Having the progressive controller connected to the engine management software can basically connect the nitrous power directly to the throttle input. This means that if the tires are breaking loose and the driver has to pedal it, then the nitrous power is decreasing and increasing according to the throttle input. This greatly helps with traction control, whereas with multiple stages you either have the power 100% on or off.
With all of the advantages of EFI and progressive technology that's availible I think there will be more teams switching over.....and running faster.
01-10-2006, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
BenR- You have some good points. However, progressive controllers are already gaining popularity among small tired racers very quickly. Like Al brought up, if you looked at a graph that showed applied hp over time vs. traction there would be a "perfect" slope, and a progressive controller will get you much much closer to the slope than multiple stages ever will. This is simply because of they way the controller is bringing in the power.
Even when you get into the Pro-Modified ranks you're still dealing with the same problem. The cars are already being used to their full potential with the massive amounts of power they already have. Combine that with a clutch and you've got a finiky little bugger. It takes years of experience to be able to compete on the Pro-Street/Pro-Modified level and even those guys experience tire shake/spin on a regular basis.
It's just much simpler to use stages of nitrous instead of progressive nitrous for an all-out racing application.
01-10-2006, 06:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben R
I got kinda confused by this but basically you're looking to bring in as much power as possible as quickly as possible. Keeping it smooth is really a function of the converter/clutch setup and the overall chassis. With the clutch deal I've seen some people set up their stages on a clutch switch (Pull a gear, add a kit or two or three LOL) and some people on delay boxes. It seems to work both ways, although personally I think one way is better than the others.
On a street-car that's running on something like a drag radial and basically stock suspension I can see where a progressive controller could help keep the wheel spin down to a minimum, but if you're too conservative with it it could end up costing you some ET.
On a street-car that's running on something like a drag radial and basically stock suspension I can see where a progressive controller could help keep the wheel spin down to a minimum, but if you're too conservative with it it could end up costing you some ET.
01-11-2006, 09:18 AM
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BenR - Again, I agree with you that being consistant can be very difficult. However, a progressive controller that is constantly adjusting to what the car is doing as it goes down track based on input from the engine management and other parts of the car will be more consistent than a car that has the nitrous power set on stages that are 100% on or off. And while yes, you could call the small tired racers "sportsman" I think it's crazy for someone to say that guys that are going mid 4's in the 1/8th and mid 7's in the quarter on a tire that is no bigger than a ruler have no "real" racing experience.
The simple fact of the matter is that people fear what they don't understand, and lets face it, the majority of today's really fast nitrous racers are older guys that have been playing with this stuff for a decade or more. They have always used carbs and multiple stages and so that is what they stick with. Relearning to tune with EFI and nitrous controllers can be a scary thing for someone that has never used anything but carbs and 3-5 stages. This is the technology age and I think in the near future we will see EFI and high tech nitrous controllers become common place for those that want to win. The turbo crowd has embraced technology and that is why we have drag radial cars running 7's in the 1/4 with 6 cylinders and a single turbo, and why there's an LS1 in the 6's along with quite a few other's in the 7's. It's about time that the nitrous crowd does the same. Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.
The simple fact of the matter is that people fear what they don't understand, and lets face it, the majority of today's really fast nitrous racers are older guys that have been playing with this stuff for a decade or more. They have always used carbs and multiple stages and so that is what they stick with. Relearning to tune with EFI and nitrous controllers can be a scary thing for someone that has never used anything but carbs and 3-5 stages. This is the technology age and I think in the near future we will see EFI and high tech nitrous controllers become common place for those that want to win. The turbo crowd has embraced technology and that is why we have drag radial cars running 7's in the 1/4 with 6 cylinders and a single turbo, and why there's an LS1 in the 6's along with quite a few other's in the 7's. It's about time that the nitrous crowd does the same. Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.
01-11-2006, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
The simple fact of the matter is that people fear what they don't understand, and lets face it, the majority of today's really fast nitrous racers are older guys that have been playing with this stuff for a decade or more. They have always used carbs and multiple stages and so that is what they stick with.
I just can't see how a progressive in bigtime racing couldn't be better. You can adjust the progression curve and clutch to achieve your desired setup the same way you would mess with 5 stages and delay times for all those stages. Once you stop changing the n20 setup, how would it be inconsistent? Wouldn't you think 4-5 stages with 4-5 different tq spikes would make clutch tuning even more of a headache than a simple nitrous progression curve in which smooth tq application and cluch engagment would blend together for smoother operation?