Dragframe

iTrader: (14)

Ok... I have a 1996 LT1 TA... the motor is brand new and im going to spray 100 wet shot. I want to make sure to minimize puddling and any chance of a intake backfire are gone...

Any tips on this? or is this a spray and pray situation?

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

A for certain thing you can, change over to a dry hit. Then you'll never have to think twice about the intake removal thing. Even so, wet backfires are far and few between, but possible.
Robert

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Do not get caught up in all the puddling talk. A good system with a good tune up you will be fine. There is no way for the fuel to puddle unless your tune up is way fat.
Dave

Bad Habit Bird

iTrader: (12)

If you do a quick search on this topic I'm sure you will find some really good info. You could also look for posts from 383lq4ss, I think he made a post about this in the past, anyway his posts usually end up being pretty long but ALWAYS end up having really good information.

As far as the LTx style intakes, I personally think they would have less of a chance of puddling than an LSx intake due to the runners opening at the bottom of the intake instead of the top (I could be wrong though)

Either way you don't have much to worry about unless your tune is WAY off, just take the necessary safety precautions and you will be fine.

860 Performance

iTrader: (1)

I have been running a NX wet shot usually tuned to 150hp for 5 years now through a Miniram manifold (looks identical to a LT1 intake) with no problems.
Just get a good kit and a window switch and you will have nothing to worry about.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

The more of the fuel you supply via the injectors compared to the fuel going through the N2O nozzle, the better off you will be. Dropping the size of the fuel jet will obviously reduce the amount of fuel in the manifold.
Considering that most N2O kits or systems have suggested fuel jetting that is already around 15% too rich to begin with, a significant drop in fuel jet size isn't out of the question if you boost the fuel going through the injectors at WOT.
You really only need to richen up the tune through the injectors from your shift-recovery RPM and up.
If you fatten across the board, then you may run into problems at low RPM or slow your launch down a bit.

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

To start with the proper jetting recommedation for you car on a dyno to see how its reacts to your vehicle. If not a dyno at least a wideband. 2nd run a window switch so the system can not come on below 3000rpm.

Just that one little window switch set up properly would will help most of the backfire problems that people talk about.
Install your nozzle in front of the throttle body in the elbow area.


The term puddle-ing is not the cause of backfire, just a term that got misplaced years back when poeple thought you could not put a wet system on an efi car.

Hope this helps
Ricky

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Dave & Ricky,
Puddling is VERY POSSIBLE if your Fuel Solenoid is leaking fuel while trying to hold back the 50psi fuel pressure at idle, parked, and at cruise. My intake and bellow was full of fuel because of a faulty new fuel solenoid. I have since disconnected the fuel solenoid until all fuel hopefully evaporates. Everyone should inspect their intake track area every so often when using a wet before/after throttle body injected system (new plate systems included). Simply shine a flashlight while opening throttle body blade to inspect plenum. My wife has very small hands and arms so maybe I will get her to swab out my plenum with paper towels after I remove throttle body.

Inspect and rebuild your fuel solenoids often.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Correct...
If something is bad and leaking ofcourse the fuel is going to puddle up. However we are talking during regular use with averything fuctioning properly..
No need to swap out the intake. It will probley be dry by the time you get ready to work on it.
Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Just get a NOS catalog, as they have the courage to admit that puddling in fact is real and can happen. Some of their kits were designed specifically to minimize puddling on the lsx platform. This puddling issue is also confirmed in many pulished texts. Yes, rare, but it does/can happen, period.
Robert

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

wrong. Sorry to says the puddel-ing I am referring to is at wot they way nitrous is uppose to be used. I the noid sticks open no **** its going to puddle. That like saying if your throttle sicks wide open in traffic its going to be bad. so if its in the Magizine then it most be true?
Your turn.
Ricky

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Well, I think the oldest and most knowledgable nitrous company realizes that nitrous is used at wide open throttle. However, you do start at 2500/3000rpm, and also, a bog can happen on launch. Furthermore, a nitrous noid failure can also cause puddling, as the atomizing factor is then gone and fuel drops like flys on cow dung. I would suggest that maybe you talk to the engineers at NOS, they may have some insite on this topic. So your saying if a magizine say's it, it must be incorrect? would this statement stand when aiming it towards the recent article on NX?
Robert

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

I would talk to nos engineers, except they got fired when holley took them over. I see you have taken the steps as other in the past and mis qouted me, or mis represent what I type. "if its in a magizine does not make it true." I think the latest test showed just how good a maf works. NX recommends 3000 to start not 2500.
I love how the only way you can show puddle-ing exsist is with in a problem. I said puddle-ing can not happen at wide open throttle the way nitrous is to used. I guess I should have said puddle-ing can not happen if the car is tuned perfectly, nitrous flowing starts at 3000, all pieces working the way they are intended to. Look this is old, I say no and have shown how, you say yes but only in with a problem set of points.
anyone got a car for sell. I need to try and make an intake puddle so I can see whats going to happen.....

Dragframe let me appoligize to you for this thread going off coarse. partly my fault.
Ricky

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Ricky, I don't think this is off topic at all. He asked about minimizing puddling and safety. When we go back and forth, all this does is put info out for anyone interested to gleen, said info. I don't think anything you said, or I said is wrong, just makes a guy think. sometimes, some post that puddling is a myth, I don't think so, and I really don't think you think that either. I have stated many times, it is a far and few between happening, but does and can occur under certain parameters, that's all. I AM GOING WET ON MY 3RD STAGE, SO AM NOT A WET HATER.
Robert

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Puddling or not, there are plenty of explosive backfires with wet systems. Playing around with words won't make that go away.
It happens more than some people think.
I try to surround myself with dry users, but still I've seen 4 cases of wet systems destroying intake manifolds, and I don't get out that much!
I wouldn't call it rare.

It's rare for the general public, and rare for racers in general, but NOT rare for racers running wet systems.
Dyno operators see it a lot, and track employees see it a lot.

It doesn't hurt for this guy to be concerned and take measures to reduce the chances.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Dave!

Pwebbz28

iTrader: (31)

I always liked using the NoS dry kits that come with what i always called a vacuum "dump" The extra fuel comes from increased fuel pressure.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Im still trying to figure this one out...but I dont think its possible to pin it down to a certainty. So dont get too caught up on buzzwords. I hate the term "puddling". People have a tendancy to attach a buzzword to a complex situation to explain it when its unkown or over thier head.

Certainly if a fuel noid is leaking fuel will "puddle" in the intake and stream around and fly up in drops into the chamber. That makes the car run like ***. But the result is usually popping in the exhaust and crappy throttle. Not an intake backfire.

But the term "puddling" has mosly been associated with nitrous backfires of wet kits at WOT...or atleast attempting to be WOT. Many backfires happen after rapid on/off throttle/nitrous situations especially at lower rpms.

There was a pretty big discussion thread a while back on this...and if I remember right the concensus was....there was no concensus...lol.

Some said the fuel dropping out of suspension (making the puddles..lol.) then cuased the engine or certain cylinders to go lean resulting in detonation. I still dont know how the flame would get into the intake to ignite the incoming mixture. It would have to be almost like dieseling for the flame to be present when the intake valve opens again...and even then it should be a huge rush of incoming fuel and air.

It seems to me backfires happen most when:
the tune is very rich
at lower rpms
when you get on/off the throttle rapidly when spraying
there is a malfunction of some type

Its almost like a compressor stall on a jet engine. This happens when the pressure behind the compresor is greater than the compressor. It results in a backflow of pressure through the compressor. In theory it should not be able to happen but does. It results in a BOOM BOOM BOOM out the front of the engine. Maybe some have heard that before...especially jets that are landing and powering up with the thrust reversers deployed.

The most obvious scenario this could happen on a car is when the TB is slammed shut rapidly after going WOT with nitrous for a second. Big pressure drop in the manifold. But the cylinder is STUFFED full of exhaust gases..alot more than normal because it just ingested twice its normal AF mix. Time everything just right and it seems that could be an easy way to get a backfire especially on cams with alot of overlap. The exhaust will take the path of least resistance which is normally out the exhaust...but if there is alot of backpressure at the exhaust valve and then near vacum on the intake valve due to shutting the TB....even though most of the exhaust gases have exited the cylinder by the time overlap happens...it seems if timed right you could get reversion into the intake...especially on a rich tune. About that time your back on the throttle and filling the intake again with a nice Af mix...lol....KABOOM.


The other scenario that seems to happen is too much juice at very low rpm. I just dont think the parmeters for good burn and exhaust evacuation exist at the lower rpm like they do at higher rpm. Especially since cylinder pressure is HUGE at lower rpm due to the cylinder fill of nitrous since the nitrous flow rate is constant regardless of engine rpm. Another reason why I like rpm based controllers for street cars.


But there certainly seems to be more than one time this happens. Ive seen it happen just going WOT and staying that way at any rpm. The only time I saw this actually happen is front of my eyes was a buddy with a stock 5.0 with bolt ons and a Nitrous works 150 shot. He was having issues with it and damn near everytime he sprayed it it would pop and blow the filter off...lol. We would pull over and put it all back on and do it again. I think he eventually found it was horribly out of tune and never had another problem with it once he fixed those issues.

I think most other issues with backfires could probably be attributed to either poor tune of some kind of mechanical malunction. But I am pretty sure that ALL backfires DO NOT happen for the exact same reason...they are varied. But the end result is usually the same...a pop...maybe a blown up intake and potential fire.

I just hate it when the term..."puddling" is thrown out as an explanation for any and all backfires. Its not like the fuel was flowing great..then all of a sudden it started streaming out and down the intake. Atleast not without some mechanical failure or some other underlying issue. Its the fialures and issues that need to be addresses....not the little puddles...lol.

It seems to me the best ways to minimize nitrous backfires with a wet kit would be too:
use a WOT switch and set it atleast 3000 rpm...the higher the safer
stay on top of your tune
ensure you have nice free flowing exhaust to reduce backpressure
test your noids from time to time
if you have problems during a run..get out of it and stay out
make sure your nitrous does not activate until the TB is fully open

Im just rambling here trying to think out loud...so dont pick my post apart too much. I still am not sure 100% of what going on for this and all its possible reasons.

gator's 99TA

iTrader: (2)

what allen said!

860 Performance

iTrader: (1)

Where do you find the time to write these novels?
Long winded, but always right!