Nitrous gurus come inside please
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Nitrous gurus come inside please I've been pondering a hidden kit. Has anyone ever tried just using a solenoid type remote bottle opener as the only solenoid on a dry kit? I know for the hardest hit it's better to run the solenoid as close to the nozzle as possible, but that's just 1 more thing to hide.
Ok, the bottle opener Noids are huge, heavy and setup for longer operation lower temps, but not for using a nitrous noid persae. The regular nitrous noid will melt the internal coil, piston or both, if used as a bottle opener. So, use the right parts for the intended use and your good. No reason to try going outside the box on such a risky thing like playing with 900-1300psi nitrous! Want a hidden kit get with Dave @ Nitrous Daves Outlet and tell him you want the money maker. Dont ask for pics, and if you get one, repsect it by not posting pics! Just throw it on and whoop ***!
Both replys are correct, with the addition: Noid style openers have a small pluger port that opens first and lets the nitrous pressure stabalize on each side of the piston (this will help it live longer), then the full piston/plunger opens. So, as you can see not ideal for a spraying noid.
Robert
Robert
Originally Posted by CAT3
Ok, the bottle opener Noids are huge, heavy and setup for longer operation lower temps, but not for using a nitrous noid persae. The regular nitrous noid will melt the internal coil, piston or both, if used as a bottle opener. So, use the right parts for the intended use and your good. No reason to try going outside the box on such a risky thing like playing with 900-1300psi nitrous! Want a hidden kit get with Dave @ Nitrous Daves Outlet and tell him you want the money maker. Dont ask for pics, and if you get one, repsect it by not posting pics! Just throw it on and whoop ***!
Dave
Now if you want a dry hidden set up check out our Halo system. Its the best dry kit on the market and can be very hidden. If you want a wet system like Cat3 said the money maker speaks for its self.
Dave
Dave
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Originally Posted by Robert56
Both replys are correct, with the addition: Noid style openers have a small pluger port that opens first and lets the nitrous pressure stabalize on each side of the piston (this will help it live longer), then the full piston/plunger opens. So, as you can see not ideal for a spraying noid.
Robert
Robert
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Originally Posted by koolrayz
The proper term for describing that type of valve in industry is "pilot" it is a pilot style valve
Robert
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From: Huntington Beach CA
Not all of the solenoid style remote openers are using a pilot valve like the old NOS one. The one that is being used by Edelbrock, Nitrous Supply and possibly Cold Fusion is a different style. Those ones are basically a regular solenoid (around .300" orifice) that use a sort of slide hammer effect to get the plunger off the seat. Because of this they would not be a good choice for pulsing like with a progress controller. But there should be no problem with them being used as a standard solenoid. The one thing I would caution some about if they wanted to use it as a standard solenoid is that because it is so much larger than even the biggest common nitrous solenoid (.125") it will have substantially less pressure drop across it which may lead to more nitrous entering the engine than was previously going in with the smaller solenoids.
Originally Posted by srsnow
Not all of the solenoid style remote openers are using a pilot valve like the old NOS one. The one that is being used by Edelbrock, Nitrous Supply and possibly Cold Fusion is a different style. Those ones are basically a regular solenoid (around .300" orifice) that use a sort of slide hammer effect to get the plunger off the seat. Because of this they would not be a good choice for pulsing like with a progress controller. But there should be no problem with them being used as a standard solenoid. The one thing I would caution some about if they wanted to use it as a standard solenoid is that because it is so much larger than even the biggest common nitrous solenoid (.125") it will have substantially less pressure drop across it which may lead to more nitrous entering the engine than was previously going in with the smaller solenoids.
Here's a picture of an industrial noid (single action) that worked great as a bottle opener, I used it for a couple years with no issues.
And a picture of the NOS pinch valve style (dual action), which gave me more problems than the other style. I no longer run any remote opener.
http://home.comcast.net/~weaver.robe...8/site1058.jpg
Robert
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From: Huntington Beach CA
I think you misunderstood me. The solenoids I am referring to do not have to wait for pressure to equalize on both sides. They are built just like a normal solenoid except that the plunger uses a small slide hammer that accelerates freely about .040" of an inch before pulling the sealing portion of the plunger off of the seat. They open very quickly but if you tried to use it with a progressive controller which usually pulses at about 20-35 hertz there could be an issues with the solenoids response time. But under normal opening and closing conditions there should be no problem.
The amp draw of a solenoid is not an indication of its worthiness for a particular application. Especially if that solenoid has been designed to function in the application it is being used. This particular solenoid I am referring to has a maximum opening pressure of 1500psi and only draws 0.5 amps. It can do that because of the design of the solenoid. If it had a normal plunger designed it wouldn't work.
But like I said before that big of an orifice in the solenoid would most likely require some adjustment to the jetting of the nitrous kit. It is not a solenoid you would just want to go slap on your existing nitrous set up and go run. But it could be used as a primary nitrous solenoid in a system that is not using a progressive controller
The amp draw of a solenoid is not an indication of its worthiness for a particular application. Especially if that solenoid has been designed to function in the application it is being used. This particular solenoid I am referring to has a maximum opening pressure of 1500psi and only draws 0.5 amps. It can do that because of the design of the solenoid. If it had a normal plunger designed it wouldn't work.
But like I said before that big of an orifice in the solenoid would most likely require some adjustment to the jetting of the nitrous kit. It is not a solenoid you would just want to go slap on your existing nitrous set up and go run. But it could be used as a primary nitrous solenoid in a system that is not using a progressive controller
Originally Posted by srsnow
I think you misunderstood me. The solenoids I am referring to do not have to wait for pressure to equalize on both sides. They are built just like a normal solenoid except that the plunger uses a small slide hammer that accelerates freely about .040" of an inch before pulling the sealing portion of the plunger off of the seat. They open very quickly but if you tried to use it with a progressive controller which usually pulses at about 20-35 hertz there could be an issues with the solenoids response time. But under normal opening and closing conditions there should be no problem.
The amp draw of a solenoid is not an indication of its worthiness for a particular application. Especially if that solenoid has been designed to function in the application it is being used. This particular solenoid I am referring to has a maximum opening pressure of 1500psi and only draws 0.5 amps. It can do that because of the design of the solenoid. If it had a normal plunger designed it wouldn't work.
But like I said before that big of an orifice in the solenoid would most likely require some adjustment to the jetting of the nitrous kit. It is not a solenoid you would just want to go slap on your existing nitrous set up and go run. But it could be used as a primary nitrous solenoid in a system that is not using a progressive controller
The amp draw of a solenoid is not an indication of its worthiness for a particular application. Especially if that solenoid has been designed to function in the application it is being used. This particular solenoid I am referring to has a maximum opening pressure of 1500psi and only draws 0.5 amps. It can do that because of the design of the solenoid. If it had a normal plunger designed it wouldn't work.
But like I said before that big of an orifice in the solenoid would most likely require some adjustment to the jetting of the nitrous kit. It is not a solenoid you would just want to go slap on your existing nitrous set up and go run. But it could be used as a primary nitrous solenoid in a system that is not using a progressive controller
The amp draw is an indicater of power and thus the ability to overcome pressure and contaminates. If what you say is true the nitrous companys better stop producing their big 20/30 amp noids and go with the small 7/8/9amp (which they all have) to save money?
The size of the orifice is not the indicator of a/f or jetting but rather an indicator of total flow it can produce. The limiting factor (until you reach noid orifice size) is the jet.
Nice to have some new blood to debate the merits of nitrous. This is how info becomes available to the end users. They must sometimes gleen their own opinion, but for the most part the info is there to make a good judgement.
Robert
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From: Huntington Beach CA
As far as I know most nitrous solenoids are between 8-10 amps. I think I recall something about some NX solenoids being around 15 amps.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
Originally Posted by srsnow
As far as I know most nitrous solenoids are between 8-10 amps. I think I recall something about some NX solenoids being around 15 amps.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
Originally Posted by srsnow
As far as I know most nitrous solenoids are between 8-10 amps. I think I recall something about some NX solenoids being around 15 amps.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
In regards to solenoids not affecting the A/F ratio this is not always true. The larger the orifice in the solenoid the less pressure drop you will have across it. When the nitrous goes through the orifice it must speed up causing a drop in pressure. This is why going to bigger solenoids on a smaller horsepower kit can often yield more power, you have increased the pressure at the jet resulting in an increase in flow.
Going bigger noid on smaller hp kits, should in fact increase volume not pressure correct?
Just off the top of my head, NOS has a 30 amp biggest dog noid. But what you say is true about most of the noids.
Robert
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It isn't really a venturi effect. A venturi is designed to nearly eliminate boundary layer separation unlike a regular orifice. While Bernoulli's principle still applies to both the venturi has less pressure drop than a normal orifice.
Yes bottle pressure will effect the inlet and the outlet pressures but regardless of incoming pressure the larger orifice will still have less of an a to b change. Now the only thing that might screw it up is bottle pressures above 1050 which is where nitrous turns to a gas and loses a lot of density. At 945psi it is 5.44 lb/gal and at 1040 it is 3.78 lb/gal. That is a change of 1.66 lb/gal before that pressure it can range between .30 and .54 lb/gal per 100 psi increase. That much of a density change may have a larger affect. As up to that point the density vs. pressure was much more linear.
Yes you are increasing the volume through the jet by increasing the pressure to it.
The NOS solenoid you are referring to is the 16010 Super Big Shot. It was a 30amp coil and a .156" orifice. But it was never something that got put into kits and was only really recommended in certain situations. In classes where you were restricted to a certain jet size or to only one nitrous and fuel solenoid.
And I agree with what was said a few posts up about too much thought being put into a dry kit. Just use a normal solenoid and a mechanical opener. You have to put the bottle somewhere and where ever that is probably has room for an opener on the bottle.
Yes bottle pressure will effect the inlet and the outlet pressures but regardless of incoming pressure the larger orifice will still have less of an a to b change. Now the only thing that might screw it up is bottle pressures above 1050 which is where nitrous turns to a gas and loses a lot of density. At 945psi it is 5.44 lb/gal and at 1040 it is 3.78 lb/gal. That is a change of 1.66 lb/gal before that pressure it can range between .30 and .54 lb/gal per 100 psi increase. That much of a density change may have a larger affect. As up to that point the density vs. pressure was much more linear.
Yes you are increasing the volume through the jet by increasing the pressure to it.
The NOS solenoid you are referring to is the 16010 Super Big Shot. It was a 30amp coil and a .156" orifice. But it was never something that got put into kits and was only really recommended in certain situations. In classes where you were restricted to a certain jet size or to only one nitrous and fuel solenoid.
And I agree with what was said a few posts up about too much thought being put into a dry kit. Just use a normal solenoid and a mechanical opener. You have to put the bottle somewhere and where ever that is probably has room for an opener on the bottle.