Anyone using Racetested/Wizards of NOS kits?
08-28-2006, 05:39 PM
#21
Originally Posted by srsnow
You win at the internet, seriously that is the best cliff notes of his ideas I have ever heard
So, rather than just bashing this guy without reviewing the product, what do you actually think of his solenoids? Do you have any real experience with them?
08-28-2006, 06:00 PM
#22
Originally Posted by farnoush
Haha, I dont even frequent this nitrous section very much but I knew how this thread would turn out before clicking on it. I cant believe I actually read that jackasses book. That guy has his head so far up his *** its not even funny. Heres the cliff notes from the book to save you guys some time and money. "My WON products are the best. I created nitrous oxide. NOS , NX, zex, any company besides mine sucks. Stainless braided line for nitrous isnt good, use my cheap plastic hoses. I quadrupled the horsepower on my james bond gokart with the power of NAAWWWSSS.
Maybe you should write a prologue for his book!
08-28-2006, 09:02 PM
#23
You guys need to go to the WON thread that was linked at the begining of this thread. I have the "Wizard's" panties in an uproar. he just replied to my statements with the most arrogant long azz spewing barf like verbage I have heard in a long time. But, I am not done yet. hehehehehehehehe
Robert
Robert
08-28-2006, 10:43 PM
#25
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Careful stirring the pot, diplomacy and tact go a long way Robert.
Are your goals to enlighten them or just to get their ***** in an uproar and have them start posting crap here? Plan and post accordingly for whatever your intentions are.
A cut and paste of your above post at their site will just make you out as a **** stirrer in their eyes, and ruin your credibility without them even reading (or wanting to read) what you said.
Beer
Are your goals to enlighten them or just to get their ***** in an uproar and have them start posting crap here? Plan and post accordingly for whatever your intentions are.
A cut and paste of your above post at their site will just make you out as a **** stirrer in their eyes, and ruin your credibility without them even reading (or wanting to read) what you said.
Beer
08-28-2006, 11:02 PM
#26
Beer, did you not read through the whole thing. Diplomacy was my idea. however, the pompous arrogant attitude is what's getting in their way. Stirring the pot, only cause they are blind to how they are really alineating us whom would be possibly interested in the products, if it wasn't a "I am 100% right and the rest of you are wrong, and I would be glad to point this out". If you noticed, he stated he had a bone to pick with Mike from NX. Well, the history of all this goes way back, and thus the name Wizards of NOS, meaning an attempt at bone picking with NOS, another issue from the past. they make there own beds and are at war with the US nitrous companies. In my next rebutal, I plan on letting them know that the thread is being followed by members in this thread. I have nothing to hide. By the way, i allready have a history with wizards of NOS and Racetested, so they know where i am coming from. Mostly a friendly debate, and we take none of it personal. Like I said before, they have good ideas, just lacking tact at presenting/promoting products in a tastefull manner that would court buyers. I have invited them to join this site and others, but to no avail. having complete and absolute control on their forum seems to suit them fine.
Robert
Robert
08-29-2006, 11:06 AM
#27
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The proof is in the pudding:
http://www.quick8promods.com/members/johnnybarb/
Sounds like a lot of bark and no bite....
-Ben R
http://www.quick8promods.com/members/johnnybarb/
Sounds like a lot of bark and no bite....
-Ben R
08-29-2006, 08:10 PM
#28
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I just replied to a series of question over there he asked. Hes no dummy. But I am not certain that his approach is any more benificial than any other comany. I think there is a huge difference between a NX EFI kit intended to spray a max of a 150 shot and that of a promod car. Its not necessary to apply certain concepts and design features into that genereic 150 shot on a street car to get your desired result.
And all American companies I see have parts plenty good to achieve just about any goal involving nitrous. Hes right that for the Promod guys or class resticted guys its all in the details. But for the avg user those details are nearly meaningless. Anyways...heres the link and what i wrote.
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2230
In theory it seems the engine with the liquid nitrous could make more power due to the reduction in volume of the liquid nitrous allowing for more ambient air to enter the cylinder during fill. This assumes you have placed the nozzle in the best possible spot as to not allow time for the liquid nitrous to completely shift from liquid to gas. But its not nearly as black and white as "liquid or gas". Depending on the lines, noids, distibution blocks, distance from nozzle to intake valve, temp of intake cylinder port, temp of intake air charge, temp of nitrous in the bottle.
That distance from liquid to completely gas can vary greatly. probably 99% of applications never see 100% gaseous nitrous. The white plume you see on a typical day is some gaseous nitrous breaking the liquid into 10s of thousands of droplets of liquid. In this state the surface area of the nitrous is drastically increased and shift from gas to liquid happens VERY rapidly. So the amount of gas nitrous in the line prior to nozzle exit also has a big part to play. More or less gaseous nitrous in the line is affected by many things as well. Inlcuding line diameter, line length (which combined = volume) Heat in the line that is available to transfer to the nitrous flowing thru the line. So if you have a solinoid that has 100% liquid nitrous up to the plunger...and that plunger is opened....thats when the games begin. The rate at which the liquid converts to gas will be dependant on the above factors. I dont believe there is any system currently created that will deliver 100% liquid nitrous into the combustion chamber.That would take direct injection like a diesel. So Its really just a question of the density of the nitrous as it enters the chamber. The "FOG" that we all see come out of a line or purge or nozzle can vary greatly in density. And that density rapidly decreases as the "FOG" extends out from that nozzle.
Then there is the question of what amount of nitrous density is best for an internal combustion engine? Will pure liquid nitrous (along with the correct amount of fuel of course) cause issues within the combustion chamber itself? Obviously the opposite of that, completely gaseous nitrous, will lack much of the punch compared to a more dense "fog" approaching that of liquid. But what is best? Pure liquid? 95% density? 85% density? If you fill a cylinder on a 355 ci SBC with its 1/8 share of a 400 shot in 95% density will the action of the fuel being mixed, piston coming up and resultant quench action be enough to COMPLETELY phase change and evenly distribute the liquid nitrous? I personally do not think an extremely high percentage of density is the best thing for all internal combustion engines. Things like cylinder head material (iron or alum) chamber design, operating temps, compression, could have large impacts on this and potentially create problems within the cylinder itself during the combustion process.
To give a really accurate answer obviously we would require alot more info But I am assuming your question is to simulate a typical intake tract with air flowing thru it such as an intake pipe at WOT. The nitrous on say a typical 100 shot would not completely turn from liquid to gas. It would be some % of density between the liquid form and gaseous form. Again...the temp of the abient air and the pipe itself would play a part. I really have no idea but i would venture a guess of less than 10% density as compared to liquid nitrous as it exits the pipe in your example. In other words...mostly gas. Of course if it was a 600 shot that density level would increase greatly. So mass flow in relation to the tube size is very relevant as well.
Only that the density of nitrous delivered to a specific location into an engine can be varied with the design of the kit.
There are a ton of other questions to ask as well. Such as HP goals, race class rules (single .073 jet, etc), intake type, efi or carb, etc as to wether or not you may need to increase the density of your nitrous charge and if in fact that will be benificial. In some instances it absolutely will be benificail. In other cases the goals can be met with a variety of designs.
And all American companies I see have parts plenty good to achieve just about any goal involving nitrous. Hes right that for the Promod guys or class resticted guys its all in the details. But for the avg user those details are nearly meaningless. Anyways...heres the link and what i wrote.
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2230
Let's see if this opens anyones eyes!
Take 2 identical engines.
Over a 10 second period flow a bottle (say a 2lb size for some reality) of nitrous into each engine.
The nitrous fed to engine 1 is in gaseous form.
The nitrous fed to engine 2 is in liquid form.
Despite the nitrous being in different forms the same volume is fed to each engine.
Question 1)
Which engine will make more torque and ultimately more power?
Take 2 identical engines.
Over a 10 second period flow a bottle (say a 2lb size for some reality) of nitrous into each engine.
The nitrous fed to engine 1 is in gaseous form.
The nitrous fed to engine 2 is in liquid form.
Despite the nitrous being in different forms the same volume is fed to each engine.
Question 1)
Which engine will make more torque and ultimately more power?
That distance from liquid to completely gas can vary greatly. probably 99% of applications never see 100% gaseous nitrous. The white plume you see on a typical day is some gaseous nitrous breaking the liquid into 10s of thousands of droplets of liquid. In this state the surface area of the nitrous is drastically increased and shift from gas to liquid happens VERY rapidly. So the amount of gas nitrous in the line prior to nozzle exit also has a big part to play. More or less gaseous nitrous in the line is affected by many things as well. Inlcuding line diameter, line length (which combined = volume) Heat in the line that is available to transfer to the nitrous flowing thru the line. So if you have a solinoid that has 100% liquid nitrous up to the plunger...and that plunger is opened....thats when the games begin. The rate at which the liquid converts to gas will be dependant on the above factors. I dont believe there is any system currently created that will deliver 100% liquid nitrous into the combustion chamber.That would take direct injection like a diesel. So Its really just a question of the density of the nitrous as it enters the chamber. The "FOG" that we all see come out of a line or purge or nozzle can vary greatly in density. And that density rapidly decreases as the "FOG" extends out from that nozzle.
Then there is the question of what amount of nitrous density is best for an internal combustion engine? Will pure liquid nitrous (along with the correct amount of fuel of course) cause issues within the combustion chamber itself? Obviously the opposite of that, completely gaseous nitrous, will lack much of the punch compared to a more dense "fog" approaching that of liquid. But what is best? Pure liquid? 95% density? 85% density? If you fill a cylinder on a 355 ci SBC with its 1/8 share of a 400 shot in 95% density will the action of the fuel being mixed, piston coming up and resultant quench action be enough to COMPLETELY phase change and evenly distribute the liquid nitrous? I personally do not think an extremely high percentage of density is the best thing for all internal combustion engines. Things like cylinder head material (iron or alum) chamber design, operating temps, compression, could have large impacts on this and potentially create problems within the cylinder itself during the combustion process.
Take a bottle of liquid nitrous and empty it (in liquid form), as quickly as possible into a 12" length of 2" diameter pipe.
Question 2)
How long would it take for the liquid to change to gas?
Question 2)
How long would it take for the liquid to change to gas?
Question 3)
What do these answers tell you about the design of a nitrous system?
What do these answers tell you about the design of a nitrous system?
Only that the density of nitrous delivered to a specific location into an engine can be varied with the design of the kit.
There are a ton of other questions to ask as well. Such as HP goals, race class rules (single .073 jet, etc), intake type, efi or carb, etc as to wether or not you may need to increase the density of your nitrous charge and if in fact that will be benificial. In some instances it absolutely will be benificail. In other cases the goals can be met with a variety of designs.
08-29-2006, 08:34 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
I just replied to a series of question over there he asked. Hes no dummy. But I am not certain that his approach is any more benificial than any other comany. I think there is a huge difference between a NX EFI kit intended to spray a max of a 150 shot and that of a promod car. Its not necessary to apply certain concepts and design features into that genereic 150 shot on a street car to get your desired result.
And all American companies I see have parts plenty good to achieve just about any goal involving nitrous. Hes right that for the Promod guys or class resticted guys its all in the details. But for the avg user those details are nearly meaningless. Anyways...heres the link and what i wrote.
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2230
And all American companies I see have parts plenty good to achieve just about any goal involving nitrous. Hes right that for the Promod guys or class resticted guys its all in the details. But for the avg user those details are nearly meaningless. Anyways...heres the link and what i wrote.
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2230
Everything you wrote in that thread is correct, but now wait for him to disagree with everything you said. Thats just how he is, hes always right.
08-29-2006, 09:18 PM
#30
Al good stuff as per normal. We'll wait for a response, however, he may quickly figure he has found another chess player who can beat him at his own game and resist a reply? Started anothe thread over there on debating all angles of nitrous, i started with a braided vs poly line statement. This should be good as he has allready stated in opening post that I can't win a debate because he's right, or something like that. I thought a debate was to go back and forth on issues based on fact/knowledge, but I guess because he is right and stated such, that only his facts can be supported. 
Robert
Robert
08-29-2006, 09:24 PM
#31
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well...lets see what an open debate can bring. Hes either as good as he sais he is...or something less. I already see many holes in the arguement...not one of which is cost vs goals.
08-30-2006, 08:36 AM
#32
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It seems to me that this WoN vs the world argument is like never ending OCH vs OHV argument. 
I find it interesting that what's his face can say, "I'm just happy that my current American customers are out of the box thinkers and pioneers rather than sheep." Am I the only one who thinks his entire european customer base are just that? A bunch of sheep who flock around their know-it-all shepherd? It's not like his customers do anything except regurgitate everything what's his face writes. It's like plagiarism or something. I'd also like to add that he uses "fact" too much. He hasn't presented anything factual... only done what other posters have and claimed something to be a fact. I'm not in the mood to play semantics with him though... I've already been banned once for contradicting his "facts" lol.
And you're right, whoever said 25-50 HP shots. The only thing in those euro-trash cars are weed wacker engines... even on the ones on exotics (e.g. 6.0L, V12 wtf?!) One Pro-Mod car proves nothing. That's just chance and dumb luck. If there's a second, then it's coincedince and time for a lottery ticket. After 10 or 15 I might become a believer.
Finally, I can't wait to see this solenoid-less nitrous system. Should be interesting!
I find it interesting that what's his face can say, "I'm just happy that my current American customers are out of the box thinkers and pioneers rather than sheep." Am I the only one who thinks his entire european customer base are just that? A bunch of sheep who flock around their know-it-all shepherd? It's not like his customers do anything except regurgitate everything what's his face writes. It's like plagiarism or something. I'd also like to add that he uses "fact" too much. He hasn't presented anything factual... only done what other posters have and claimed something to be a fact. I'm not in the mood to play semantics with him though... I've already been banned once for contradicting his "facts" lol.
And you're right, whoever said 25-50 HP shots. The only thing in those euro-trash cars are weed wacker engines... even on the ones on exotics (e.g. 6.0L, V12 wtf?!) One Pro-Mod car proves nothing. That's just chance and dumb luck. If there's a second, then it's coincedince and time for a lottery ticket. After 10 or 15 I might become a believer.
Finally, I can't wait to see this solenoid-less nitrous system. Should be interesting!
08-30-2006, 10:48 AM
#33
Here's the latest thread that is a follow up to the above thread. Maybe Al would like to help on this debate, as his knowledge base is much broader than mine?
NOSwizard debate thread
Robert
NOSwizard debate thread
Robert
08-30-2006, 02:40 PM
#34
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Ok it's not WoN, but I got this from their site, and...
http://www.midlandsnitrous.co.uk/con...en-uk/d12.html
Holy ****! lol look at the packaging of this nitrous kit. Are they freakin' serious? Do they actually send their crap out like that? My motherboard didn't even get all that foam and it's actually sensitive to shocks and vibrations. OVERKILL!
Holy **** #2! $757.10 for only like 25 flywheel HP?! and a shiny 5lb bottle? I bet it's all that extra foam and the useless cardboard box. RIP OFF!
The only thing I like is the extremely shiny flow thru adapter they have:
PRETTY!
Oh, and wtf are "FIDDLY OLIVES"?
http://www.midlandsnitrous.co.uk/con...en-uk/d12.html
Holy ****! lol look at the packaging of this nitrous kit. Are they freakin' serious? Do they actually send their crap out like that? My motherboard didn't even get all that foam and it's actually sensitive to shocks and vibrations. OVERKILL!
Holy **** #2! $757.10 for only like 25 flywheel HP?! and a shiny 5lb bottle? I bet it's all that extra foam and the useless cardboard box. RIP OFF!
The only thing I like is the extremely shiny flow thru adapter they have:
PRETTY!
Oh, and wtf are "FIDDLY OLIVES"?
08-30-2006, 02:44 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Robert56@NitrousDirect
Here's the latest thread that is a follow up to the above thread. Maybe Al would like to help on this debate, as his knowledge base is much broader than mine?
NOSwizard debate thread
Robert
NOSwizard debate thread
Robert
08-30-2006, 03:17 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by Mike TexaSS
The proof is in the pudding:
http://www.quick8promods.com/members/johnnybarb/
Sounds like a lot of bark and no bite....
-Ben R
http://www.quick8promods.com/members/johnnybarb/
Sounds like a lot of bark and no bite....
-Ben R
Get to work phone boy
08-30-2006, 04:12 PM
#37
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He has some valid points. However its really nothing we ALL havent discussed here before and all pretty much agreed on...besides the nylon line issue.
However...the issue with maximizing the density of the nitrous at all costs is not universal.
Just like past discussion here about a TNT kit with 100 jets making 125 rwhp vs an NOS kit with 100 jets making 95 hp. Can the NOS kit be jetted to make 125 rwhp? of course it can. Its all just a question of MASS flow. So in each case if your objective is to gain exactly 125 rwhp it can be done with both.
Same goes for nitrous density. If you are atempting to squeeze out every last drop of HP when you are limited on VE then by all means apply the things he is talking about. But if you want a 75 shot.....hook a kit up and spray it until you get 75 hp. You can do that with a $350 kit as well as a $2000 kit.
On the subject of combustion temp reduction vs detonation...I think he may have something there. The less transfer of energy wasted on cooling the lines, noids , intake tract, intake manifold, intake port, back of intake valve....has to aid in cooling combustion temps...in turn possibly reducing detonation.
However those principles can be applied to any kit....and really only will work with a direct port IMO. It will work with a typical 150 shot in the TB but the differences in keeping cross sectional area and exxpansion areas within the lines,noids, nozzle, distibution block IMO would pale in comparison to the physical location of the nozzle.
However...the issue with maximizing the density of the nitrous at all costs is not universal.
Just like past discussion here about a TNT kit with 100 jets making 125 rwhp vs an NOS kit with 100 jets making 95 hp. Can the NOS kit be jetted to make 125 rwhp? of course it can. Its all just a question of MASS flow. So in each case if your objective is to gain exactly 125 rwhp it can be done with both.
Same goes for nitrous density. If you are atempting to squeeze out every last drop of HP when you are limited on VE then by all means apply the things he is talking about. But if you want a 75 shot.....hook a kit up and spray it until you get 75 hp. You can do that with a $350 kit as well as a $2000 kit.
On the subject of combustion temp reduction vs detonation...I think he may have something there. The less transfer of energy wasted on cooling the lines, noids , intake tract, intake manifold, intake port, back of intake valve....has to aid in cooling combustion temps...in turn possibly reducing detonation.
However those principles can be applied to any kit....and really only will work with a direct port IMO. It will work with a typical 150 shot in the TB but the differences in keeping cross sectional area and exxpansion areas within the lines,noids, nozzle, distibution block IMO would pale in comparison to the physical location of the nozzle.
08-31-2006, 11:44 AM
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Al the way I read that other link. It seemed to be a bait and switch. Wanting to see what people are thinking, waiting, making comments and waiting more. It just seems to me why ask the question to others if you already know the answer. I guess to make ones self seem smarter, I do not know.
Ricky
Ricky