Helmsdini

iTrader: (1)

well I was just looking at motorbooks to see if they had any new nitrous books out. I saw that picture and said.. uh, who really uses those pulsenoid things? and then looked at the name on there... LMAO.

Let me find some more propaganda for you guys, I found an article by the Brits where they tested a nytrex system against the wizard stuff and even figured in YEARLY nitrous solenoid rebuilds for the american kits.

midlands

i am the noid nutter and i am taking over the north east with my new to be built 90,000 sq foot garage and i like to talk to my followers like this:

"Like I told you, those generic solenoids are garbage and not even fit for a dummy purge!!! "

and

"Get an Ohm metter (set it to the lowest range) and measure the resistance or failing that see if the solenoids smells burned. "

http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=2364


doh im so blummin thick - its meter sorry about that and another thing its called a multi meter or avo where i come from sorry about that too...

and......some meters are auto ranging and even if they aint then some could have too low a manual range setting - like what is the resistance - like what should it bee - buzz buzz!

OMG such an anchor and his followers believe this bull


Smooth is not perfect yet as it has to be bolted on to existing systems using existing solenoids so what does that tell ya????its a fudge lol - fudge is smooth and soft too..

lol lol lol

rant over - the guy is well past his pime -

Somebody09

I'm confused.

midlands

lol

for clarity:

http://www.midlandsnitrous.co.uk/prestigious.jpg

now then i was pretending to be the wizard for the first bit...

what i was trying to get over was the propaganda bull that wiz gives out to his young nieve followers...The post about measuring coil resistance was half a job as no mention was made of the impedance that should be expected as he doesnt have the answer..

I set up a ficticious account at aol just to see the extent of his security and laughed my **** off about the prestigious bit and all the bull about keeping undesirables off the site - what he really means is that its trevs way or the high way lol -----sure it wont last forever though

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

The Wizard got trounced and banned by the Pro Mod guys.
http://www.promodsource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4815
Robert

Helmsdini

iTrader: (1)

HAHAHA that email is PRICELESS midlands.

Good thread also, robert... man, I cant believe how arrogant that guy is. Id like to see someone just straight call him out on his overpriced kits and have a shootout or something. you know, "low tech" "inferior" american kit versus his expensive plastic tubing and pulsenoids or whatever. The only comparison I saw was from an obvious pro-Brit mag that factored in everything from the added shipping to a yearly solenoid rebuild against the american kit.

Somebody09

lol that was an awesome read. I guess too bad for him that he can't go back and delete all those posts.

midlands

Man that was so funny - i'm just so pleased trev aint running our country for we would be well f*****...Its trevs way or the high way..

I was thinking has anyone took these everlasting gob stoppers and sold them to industry - That would be worth a retirement within two years or less if they last as long as stated...

By the way I choose Cresby as a front name as it was popular round about the time trev was born lol.....know your competition..

redvictor

LMFAO....different forum,same result..... it never takes long,you guys were quicker than most.....

Helmsdini

iTrader: (1)

Oh good lord, another one...

What publisher is letting this biased twit write books?!



We can just hope that these books arent big sellers. I can just hear all the know-nothings at the track now bragging about the superiority of their crap-noids or whatever and how plastic dialysis tubes are the way of the future because of mr. Langfield's vast 25 years of experience tuning and modifying all that is good in the nitrous world even though he really has nothing concrete to show for it.

Give me a break.. I especially like how he uses another brands name in his own.. . wizard of "nos"... yeah.. all the really cool people call it NAWS instead of N.O.S. ...

CrazyRS

iTrader: (1)

Had to resurrect this one. I read through the above post and I was disappointed for a variety of reasons.

First and foremost, I didn't see anyone that had actually used a WON system kit, which was the point of the post in the first place.

More importantly, the complete lack of tact in provoking negative argumentative situations, and the level of ignorant discourse that went on was appalling! I am a fairly competent and trained tech, and I have run a variety of nitrous systems including some custom applications. I have also read a variety of books on the subject of nitrous, including Trevor Langfield's book. In my experience, there are positives to both the WON systems as well as with the wide variety of systems available here in the states. What a lot of people seem to be failing to understand is that Trevor is a business man and as so, he deserves every right to market himself and his nitrous systems. His commentary on American products is not a personal hit against the U.S.A.! He's hyping his gear, just as many others have in the past.

I think that what has gotten lost in the personalization of the whole discussion, is how well his systems work. After examining his solenoid construction, there is no doubt in my mind that it is superior in that regard. I'm sorry, but I much prefer advanced design and construction if I can have it. And for those of you that claimed that he gives no data, all you have to do is look and you will find that he has done plenty of legitimate testing with his solenoids to prove that they work flawlessly. And though I am not a true expert, his system design seems to follow the principles of flow dynamics pretty well too.

As for the nylon tubing. I am personally not a fan, but that doesn't mean its not effective in the proper application. In fact, Trevor himself points out that nylon is not recommended for hotter climates and high horsepower applications. And to be fair, his intention for using that type of tubing for the purposes of even flow, and decreased interior volume, make a lot of sense.

Also, on the note of his solenoids not flowing as much as American manufactured solenoids...from what I understand, he provides solenoids that flow 150, 250, and 350 horsepower levels.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be an ultimate defense of Trev. I don't even know him. I do know that he knows his nitrous stuff pretty well. Why dog him for standing by his product and his life as a dedicated automotive and nitrous enthusiast? Theres a lot that can be learned from others, especially when they're doing something in a non-traditional fashion.

So yeah, that being said...has anyone used his kits on an LS1/LS2? Progressive controlled/Direct Port? Thanks guys!

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Some kind of wizard of oz nut dragger no doubt. There is a reason no runs his stuff, wake up and smell the American roses.
Robert

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

So if you have examined his solinoids and feel they are superior..then you must have some type of reason for that claim...correct? Lay it out for us.

Also on HIS principles of flow dynamics...lay that out as well.

You made the claim...now you must back it up.

I am familiar with most of Trevors reason for doing things the way he does ...and in 99.9% of applications his methods and reasons are useless as **** on a bull.


I know his arguement...do you? Lets get deep into the discussion of the finer points of nitrous application. I look forward to the discussion.

Beer99C5

iTrader: (21)

According to my Poll, out of 500+ participants, 2 are using WON kits, you can see who they are by clicking to digging into the poll.

Beers Kit Poll

Who Has/Voted fer what

CrazyRS

iTrader: (1)

Well 383LQ4SS...thats the type of inflammatory attitude I'm talking about. Would you talk to me that way in real life, rather than a message board? We have never even met!

Anyway...my point is that the construction, ie the materials and the design are superior. I have no flow numbers. If you take a look at the billet design and very close fit of his pulsoids, you can see that there is some intense care put into the design. I have not personally tested his solenoids though, and that is why I'm interested to see what experience people have had with them on their LSX engines.

It seems to me that no one is really running his stuff, and would rather talk smack about how this guy doesn't know anything, rather than backing up their products. I don't see anyone from NX or NOS giving complex analysis of their designs and standing behind their product all the way. What do I see from NX these days? Hmm...oh yeah..."new carbon fiber lightning solenoids"...where they barely touch the subject of solenoid design or explain their engineering principles. But hey, I guess if you wrap a piece of my crap in carbon fiber, that looks cooler too...

I'm not saying American products are bad. By all means, I like a lot of things from a lot of different manufacturers. I just think there's something to say about someone who puts so much time and effort into design and manufacturing, and I personally would like to know how well it works...I really don't care if you don't like the guy personally, nor am I interested in pure here say about how his principles are bull ****. How about numbers? How about experience? Who has actually tried it and examined it? Who has actually dug into it? That's what I want to know.

So, please guys, lets not get carried away with emotion. I'm here purely for science and fun. So, if there is someone on here that's using WON stuff, then I'd really like to hear about it. And if you've got some knowledge to drop about some other cool manufacturer, then by all means, drop it on me. Peace.

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

First off, a few of us did have a tech discussion on many subjects pertaining to n2o over at the wizard of oz's site. however, once he saw that his questionable reasonings behind his, and his only, theories were being torn apart, and held absolutely no water, the site malfunctioned. how convenient, once the site was back up and running, only my posts and Al's posts and the threads we were dealing with were missing, what a joke. Then, the anti American attitude is just the last noose in his own hanging. I personally would never ever buy the junk from the other side of the pond, which brings up a good point. You stating "Here in the states", tells me with out a shadow of doubt that your in their camp. Then in the quote below you state "I'm not saying American products are bad", another saying that indicates a non American or a WON supporter. Your not playing with dumb azzes, as you must be in order to belong to his group, don't debate anything the grand master says, or else you'll be on the outside looking in. Then, you state, in high lighted color below, about NX's product, and some of us know the vendetta that WON has towards NX, shall I elaborate? You have have come to wrong place to sway the vote, way to late for that. I will never forget how I was treated on your site over there, and am not talking about the above, there is much more and I was involved with these guys years ago and that left a continuing bad taste in my mouth. I was accused of being a spy, lol, for what reason, who knows, but will never forget what was said. If I have any influence what so ever, on the readers of LS1tech they also will know to steer clear of the wizards of oz. By the way, NX is leaps and bounds ahead of the junk from WON. Anyone wonder why they have name play with NOS (Gizards of NOS, or WON), again misdealings and a vendetta. They made their bed and now must sleep in it. Your sales will never go any farther than local British Island types, and many sites have already banned the won camp. Thanks for bringing this back to life as many more need to know the truth. Good luck, your going to need it.
Robert

CrazyRS

iTrader: (1)

Ok guys. I do have to say that I have never been to the WON forum, nor have I been privy to the conversation that you posted for the obvious reasons that you just stated. I live in the U.S. I love the U.S. And, I enjoy American made products. I said, "the states", merely in reference to American manufacturers rather than WON. I also like NX's products, and I made that comment simply because it illustrates that pretty packaging doesn't go the distance. I like information...and most nitrous related companies don't provide you with much data that backs their designs. And to be equal, which has always been my intention, Trev's stuff may well really suck, and in that case...great! But, really, Im not here to defend my independent position. I am posing my question because I want data because I'm unwilling to accept that something sucks because someone says it does.

I joined LS1tech because of the quality of the people and the posts. I like being part of this community and I enjoy input from everyone. I also like to maintain neutrality. I want to hear from who REALLY knows that his kits suck? It seems more to me that everyone is basing this off of arguments about theory and numbers. When it all comes down to it, isn't it the real thing that counts? I've had all kinds of things proven to me on paper that don't work well in real life. I would simply like to hear from someone who has actually experienced a WON system...

I also want to say that I respect everyone on this forum, and I appreciate the knowledge that all of you provide. Please don't think otherwise. I'm a nice, friendly guy and I'm here because I'm a gear head just like you. Thanks guys.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

No no no...reread my post. It should not be inflammatory...but more straight the point And I most certainly would say that to anyone that would like to discuss nitrous applications. Maybe after we hash out the finer points between WON VS any other manufacturer you will see my point.

Now first and foremost. I have NOT made the claim that US manufacturers are superior. It is you and Trevor that make the claim that WON products and theory are better than anything else. Thats fine...but you have yet to provide ANY evidence to back this. You made the claim so it is up to you to back up your statement. Dont take that as inflammatory at all....that IS the benchmark in this forum.

Let me restate....IF YOU MAKE A CLAIM YOU MUST BACK IT UP. It will most certainly be challenged here. Not sure how long you have been reading here but the discussions here can get quite lenghty and very very detailed....and sometimes will even lead to testing by our very own members.

Ok...lets start....

How and why are they superior?
Is the material lilley to last longer?
Flow better?
Have some property due to its internal design that will aid with power?
Your going to have to get specific. You clearly state that WON noids are superior. You MUST have a reason for this claim.



But thats not what I am saying. I think Trevor knows just about the same thing most other manufacturers know...and nothing more. There isnt much to the use and design of a nitrous sytem...solenoids...nozzles..etc.
Its Trevor who continously makes the claims of superiority to anyone else...yet he provides nothing to back up his claims.
As proof of this...just look to the racing world. Any edge or new tech would be snatched up quickly as racers are continously evolving to get a "one up" on thier competition. If there was some benifit to his equipment, theory or design...you can BET that it would find its way into the racing world. And if it was significant....there would be a practical shift in the entire race world to that new tech. WON has been around for years yet has only a handful of cars they run on. And they have not proven to be any more succesful than any other manufacturer of nitrous equipment. As a matter of fact you could make a very good arguement for the opposite. No one has more race wins than NOS. Speed tech, pro Flow and NX all have a faithful following as well and many of the generic companies like Nitrous Outlet, Dynotune, Cold Fusion and Harris Speedowrks.

IMO all of these kits and companies can function the way they were intended.


One of WON claims is that thier pulsoid can withstand pulsing with PWM controllers better than other noids. Well...I have used many noids in my years...I have yet to have ANY one fail while hooked up to a progressive controller. And the solenoids of today are much better than even 5 years ago. I see that as a non issue..especially for a piece that is $75-$150. Hell...I dont even rebuild them. I just replace them periodically.

The WON may have a higher PWM frequency due to thier small size. IMO this is a good quality to have due to certain factors...especially on the fuel side. But there are several ways to look at this. One...the smaller pusloid flows ALOT less than typical American counterparts. So in order to flow enough to be competitive...you have to stack a ton of these very small noids to make up for the flow. this act reduces reliability with each additional set of noids. Everytime you double the number of noids...you double to potential failure rate. Clogged noids, wiring issues, failed coild etc.

And even if a higher PWM freq is desirable...you can just run two sets of American noids on the same bank alternating PWM freqs with controllers like the NX Mini dual stage or any of the FJO style progressive controllers. This effectively doubles your PWM freq. There should be no issue at those higher freqs...and if I ever do another progressive setup...this is how mine will be.


One of the last points trevor tries to make is to claim that by keeping the interior volume of all lines, noids, and nozzles to a minimum...he reduces the likleyhood of having a big bad (American) "expansion chamber". He claims that having areas where liquid nitrous can expand into gas...that this will have a detrminetal affect on performance. Getting liquid nitrous into the chamber at all costs is what Trevor tries to do. It does have benifits. But IMO they are very limited and may only be useful in race classes such as those that limit you to a single .078 jet and single solinoid. But in this case the WON noid is too small to be of use. if you use one of the larger WON noids...that may help. But time and time again it has been shown.....having the most GIANT, BEST FLOWING solinoid has a larger and more profound affect on total flow of a system than trying to maintian liquid nitrous all the way to the nozzle outlet.

The second part to this claim of trying to flow liquid all the way to the nozzle is that liquid nitrous going into the chamber with the intake valve open will displace less of the air that would go into the chamber NA thus gaining more HP. This can be true depending on cam specs and engine design. But in order for this to be of any use you would have to be at or near the highest limits of ingestion of total volume...and STILL not be reaching the HP that you need. How often does that happen? How often to we make an engine combo that we just cant squeeze enough nitous into? If you have a very inneficient nearly stock motor with crap heads...this may be of small benifit. But who sprays maximium amonts of nitrous on a near stock motor? Typically on a decntly designed motor...you can spray 70-90% of the HP the car makes NA with a properly staged American style nitrous sytem in my experiance. So if you are making 500 hp NA...you can likley injest 350-450 hp worth of juice (850-950 total. If you need more power than that you would be wiser to go with another engine combo with more cubes than to attempt to squeeze in more nitrous oxide by ensuring that liquid flows up to the jet in an attmpt to get 500 hp from juice (1000 total). And I would love to see what actual gains could be had that way...if any. In theory its possible...but in practical terms this theory falls way short for 99.9% of users IMO. Like I said...the biggest benifit for this theory is for racers that have class restrictions. And even then....these theories can be applied just as well to American style noids as well....and may even be applied better because they flow better.

A fully purged -6 line to an 800 hp nitrous noid with the remainder of the flow path (after the noid) optimized for keeping an even crossection to each intake port would fare better than a smaller noid with the same principles applied.


continued below.....

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

And once you apply that comcept to a street car....thats where the concpet become "useless as **** on a bull". If I have a street car and it makes 300 hp on motor...and I want to add 150 worth of nitrous for a 450 total....it makes NO difference what percentage of the HP comes from nitrous and what comes from NA. There is plenty of room for both. I dont think you would see ANY benifit from a WON theory of trying to get liquid nitrous into the chamber over a cheap kit. ESPECIALLY if we are talking a single nozzle system with the nozzle before the intake



Now...there is plenty of room for discussion here. I am sure you have points to make to counter what I am saying...and I am open to them. i will be glad to continue this discussion in as much detail as you can stand. If Trevor would like to come over and speak directly to us...I promise that i will NEVER delete any of the discussion...even if he elightens us on how our ideas may be in error. If he has valid points to make that stand on thier own...I promise that the users here would accept it. Hell....he may finally make some headway into the American market if he could do that. I would welcome it.

CrazyRS

iTrader: (1)

Well said. I will say that my comment about superiority revolved more around construction than flow, efficiency, etc. I have to admit that billet materials, close tolerances, and explanation of features has always been a sign of a good product in my experience.

Maybe Trev will send some gear our way so we can try it out and do some comparisons? ;D

It looks like the two people that were running his systems are no longer on here, so I can't get any info. I'd like to see some solid data. If I can't, I will probably go back to NX, but, I'm still researching and my car is not quite finished.

Trev...if you see this post, heres your opportunity to show off your product. As you can see, we at LS1tech like real results. Does WON have what it takes?

Thanks guys.