Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

I already told you how we are doing it. Moe will be the one to give more specifics in detail. My knowledge is not that great in the computer side of tunning. Since I have always had someone as good as Moe I have never had to make myself find time to sit down and learn. He always controlls the computer side and I do the nitrous. We have always made a great team this way. I really do need to learn alittle more in this area just so I can help alittle more on the computer side of things. I just know what our results yield after tunning god knows how many hundreds of cars.
Dave

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Matt,
I can give you Moe's number he may be willing to go into detail to tell you what he is doing. I dont know if this will help you or not. But its worth a shot.
Dave

Matt@HSW

iTrader: (14)

Sure, you can PM it to me.

Thanks,
Matt

bad6as

iTrader: (17)

so now im lost

BIG_MIKE2005

iTrader: (116)

Me too. I have a single nozzle dry kit awaiting install & this is getting interesting.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Matt,
I just pmed it to you.
Dave

Matt@HSW

iTrader: (14)

Got it, thanks.

Matt

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Dont worry guys. if you ever run a dry shot and want some very fine tuning...or just cant get the dry to work...youll need to go to a tuner that really knows his stuff. Im sure Matt will have it once he tries it on the dyno. And It looks like Nitro Daves shop has it. Now I know Jeremy Formato (hes a sponsor here) does it and has a ton of experiance. Youll really need to go to one of these guys unless you have HP tuners or similair and have a a very good understanding of it.

The way we do it is log a run on some type of monitoring program..back in the day it was autotap. Then we had to see what the max values where all motor. Then we had to go into the tuning software and make changes based on what the max values where running NA. Anything above that we would add fuel and /or pull timing as needed. We didnt mess with the cells the PCM was using NA.

I hope that helps. I am not a regular tuner and dont recal what the actual tables where verbatim.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Im sorry,
What you are seeing is a difference in how two different people are doing something. Matts method and our method are not the same. This is common as not everyone does everything the same way. I know its easy to get confused when you are being told two different things. All I can say is what I have already said. Both ways will work. Look at Robert56 for example. He is tunning according to nozzle location as well and he has had great results.

I prefer tunning through the computer. I feel this is more accurate and safer. I do not want to have my motors lively hood dependent on a part not moving changing its flow path.

I say pick the path that suits you and go with it.
Dave

bad6as

iTrader: (17)

what i was asking i guess is why i should go with the halo (becides the cleaner install) over a single nozzle

when i think of a nozzle i think of a fast stream of n20 pointed at the maf

when i think of teh halo i think of a "fog" of n20 mixing with the air (how does the maf pick up the extra n20?

the maf just mesures how much air/n20 is going threw it right?

and the fog of n20 would still make the maf think "whoa thats a lot of air" so it would add more fuel right

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

From what I have seen, and people who have pm'ed me on the Halo, it does seem to have a tendency to run lean. As Matt stated, it's like putting a nozzle that far from the MAF, it will likely be lean, and at the very least, a lean spike upon activation. The reason is a diluted reading at the MAF, at least in the begining, then takes a minute to catch up if shot is big enough. Small shots tend to stay lean through out run. PCM tuning, a band aid fix, is the only recourse. Now am I knocking the HALO, no, but just stating what I know from experiance and tuning many drys myself, and helping truck loads of others. This can be a great progressive style hit, if ya will go into the computer, and will/can run with a proper a/f. But, a nozzle(s) is easier to set-up generally if done properly. There are no absolutes when spraying, though.

Anyone reading along can easily see what I have stated by logging the IATs with the different style dry hits. A quick cold/dense reading at the MAF is what we want, then no lean spike and instant mondo torque, compared to lean spike and/or running lean and a very progressive on-set of torque. Been there done that.

Matt are you saying that you can't access the PE Multiplier on the '98s?

Robert

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Dont forget...its not the MAF your aiming at. Its actually the three wires. If you miss those...or a majority of the nitrous misses those...your in trouble.
Robert I know you have had good luck aiming the nozzle directly at the wires at close range...and it certainly will make it richer...but I just hate the thought of a nozzle moving a bit and the operator not seeing it. This is just my opinion.
Obviously if the operator is on the ball he will know by eye what his proper alignment is and would check it periodically. But there are many people out there who operate nitrous...not all are the type to even pop the hood and take a look from time to time.

Not to mention I have seen changes in components such as headers and manifolds make very drastic changes the the airpath prior to the MAF. Anything that increases the pumping effect can change what areas in the intake tract have the higher velocities and affect how nitrous flows past the MAF.

We just had a guy go from a 346 to a 383...no other changes. Same intake, smae dry nozzles, same exhaust etc. He went from mid 11s for an Af ratio to mid 14s on his same 150 dry shot. The only difference was the AMOUNT of air he was moving past the MAF. It changed the entire dynamic of the flow. He ended up going wet I believe.

Anyways...there are many ways to skin this cat...alot wont even need to worry about this stuff. But it does crop up enough to discuss options and preferred methods.

Putting the nozzle very close and aiming it definately works...just be careful and use something good to secure it.

But I would like the idea of something a little more foolproof...a little more repeatable...and a little more accuracy...maybe even adjustable without computer tuning

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Exactly, the MAF wires are the destination choice. See the video link below, shows how the none close nozzles/Halo can distribute real nice and fill the entire track. Not optimum in my opinion in most cases. The desired result of the dry hit is to increase inj DC, this is done by getting a nice cold/dense reading, but when most of the nitrous is in a diluted mix with air and for the most part missing the MAf wires, then the lean spikes and/or running lean ensue. Yes this can be fixed with your PE Multiplier, but this will richen your n/a a/f. Whereas, if you get the close cold/dense hit, then you can maintain your 13.0:1 area n/a a/f, and have your nice rich sprayed a/f, two tunes in one. sometimes, even close nozzles will need a little adjustment in the PE, but normally you can maintain a nice n/a a/f.

Al even on the close shots, I haven't seen a problem with moving nozzles. It's not like the spray pattern of a good 90* or 70* nozzle(s) is not fanned out a bit. actually, I think the close nozzle placement is more conducive to maintaining a/f when velocity changes come into effect, whereas, a far away nozzle has less pin pointed pressure by the time it hits the TB area and more susseptable to getting pushed away from the MAF wires.

Yes there are many ways to skin the dry cat, and I have tried them all. For me, what I have found, the close nozzle(s) and then nozzle tuning are the keys to a true two tunes in one, where spraying will not affect your n/a a/f or your n/a timing. What do I exactly mean by nozzle tuning? Well close gives a nice rich starting a/f, if going big it will/can max your MAF out and cause a rich condition. This is where dual nozzles come into play. For my set-up running a 170rwhp hit 1st stg, I ended up running one 90* nozzle directly at the MAF wire, then the other nozzle is a straight shooter back into the middle of the air box-resulting a/f is a 11.5:1 with a low 13 high 12 n/a a/f. Absolutly no lean spike what so ever. Now the same system with both straight nozzles into the center of the air box, a lean spike ensued but gradually came to a fairly safe a/f (leaner than 11.5). The same system with two 90* nozzles was a super rich condition. So this is what i really mean on nozzle tuning, along with some slight turning of nozzles (which works because of the rather large spray pattern even up close) which can allow some of the spray to bypass the MAF wire. This is just for insight for those reading along, and again, there are no absolutes in tuning so we sometimes have to find what works best for our set-ups.

Now am I saying not to use the PCM for tuning a dry hit, not at all. It's just that most do not like taking anything away from a n/a tune, and I have found that this is possible for fueling and timing needs. Now if ya don't mind losing a couple ponies n/a, then using the PE Multiplier for fuel is very, very easy. Ok I will quit rambling now.

The guy that dumped the dry, I think he gave up to easy. Nothing good is easy, and likely was just missing a small aspect of the entire platform. Not enough info to totally say velocity dynamics was at play (maybe he bumped his nozzles out of wack). I have to go now, going to a dyno day tommorrow and shooting for 600/650rwhp, on a dual dry of course.
Robert

Edit: Oh yea here's the vid from a current post.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/7...f300809654.htm

Breaking Stuff

iTrader: (11)

Now were getting somewhere. Im going to start playing with it when the weather gets a little nicer. Ill post my results. Hopefully I wont blow anything up.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Robert..I think he gave up too quick too. The first 750 rwhp of any system I have will always come from the MAF/injectors via NA power + the dry hit. If I need more I will add a small wet stage. But so far anytime I have gone above 750 I have just broken stuff...lol.

I havent seen any setups that were spraying 125 and above that have had issues with the dual tune. The only ones that did where the ones that where too lean to begin with. Of course that means its not registering thru the MAF as it should....which of course will make it tough to seperate the two.

Anyways...I am certainly not opposed to configuring the nozzle to point at the MAF for good MAF reporting. I am sure all your installs are solidly mounted and hoses tightened with no twist...and using two wrenches to back up any B nuts as not to "load" any twist in the hose that may end up turning the nozzle over time from vibration. But these are the types of things others may not be aware of because Robert you dont do everyones install. I just want everyone to know that if you aim a nozzle at the MAF from close proximity...to take care. The old floppy B nuts holding a nozzle in a flex tube or rubber connector may not be such a great idea. Mount it to something solid and reliable, mark your nozzle and what you are mounting it to so you have a visual reference to eyeball everytime you open the hood.

I know you feel the having it close is better...even as far as shooting past the MAF unregistered. But if you have twisted nozzles that were very close to the MAF in order to get the Af richer...you know there IS DEFINATELY a point where it will go leaner when its turned too far.

So again...as with anything to do with nitrous you guys...think about what your doing and do a quality job. Know how the parts interact. And above all..test it with a wideband when there is any doubt.

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Agree. Yes, indexing nozzles is a good idea. Whether a person chooses close/far, straights/90*s/Halo, PCM or Nozzle tunning, dry is still the ticket. Also, I agree the WB is a nitrous tuner's best friend.
Robert

Matt@HSW

iTrader: (14)

No, I'm saying you can't access the IAT vs Fuel Adder table. Here is what I am saying in a nutshell. Using a Dry shot on a LS1 PCM (no custom OS) if your PCM does not have a IAT vs Fuel Adder table you can't have "two" tunes on the PCM for a "smaller" dry shot (200 or under) (even if you do have a IAT vs Fuel Adder table your nozzle placement will still have to be good to use this table to add additional fuel).

If your dry kit is running lean it can be fixed with out moving the nozzle, by going into the PE table. But in doing so you'll be running rich if you go into PE mode and don't use your dry kit, therefore leaving a good amount of HP on the table NA.

Now Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet & 383LQ4SS both say you can do it, they have been running "2 tune on one PCM" for a while, but neither can really explain how to do it. Dave PMed me his tuners number, I would have called him but due to the weather we having out here I haven't had a chance to, but I will on Monday. IMHO nozzle placement is key to running a dry shot using a stock PCM, and having a good NA tune. I would have to say the best way to set it up would be to use the EFI Live custom OS and have it add the additional fuel that way, therefore eliminating nozzle placement all together.

Matt

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

can some one post a pic of a installed halo??

also would the best location for a dry halo be immediately before the maf?
also would the tune and afr become an issue if the halo is placed immediately befor the maf and the maf immediately before the tb, saying is the maf in placed closer to the tb than normal without much space on the bellow, like a shortened bellow.
such as on a fbody?

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Or call Jeremy Formato. I just spoke with him about this gain. He said it can be finicky on small shots and it affects other parameters that then need to be checked...but its not too big a deal. I am not going to discuss his methods but its not hard to figure out.

Now again...I am not saying that this should be used to compensate for a dry system thats not working properly. If the dry system is very lean to begin with due to the MAF not reading the nitrous right...youll have a very hard time doing any type of tuning via the PCM to enrich it.
This IMO would only be for systems working correctly...and then utilizing this tuning option to further fine tune your dry system. Just another possibility that we have used.

So if your 14 to 1 on a 125 shot...forget this option...it likley wont be possible.
But if your 11.2 to one on a 150+ shot and want to make that Af into an 11.7...you should be able to do it no problem.

bad6as

iTrader: (17)

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/...8f300809654.htm

now how does that shot differ then the halo?