halo kit vs single nozzle kit
Originally Posted by Matt@HSW
No, I'm saying you can't access the IAT vs Fuel Adder table. Here is what I am saying in a nutshell. Using a Dry shot on a LS1 PCM (no custom OS) if your PCM does not have a IAT vs Fuel Adder table you can't have "two" tunes on the PCM for a "smaller" dry shot (200 or under) (even if you do have a IAT vs Fuel Adder table your nozzle placement will still have to be good to use this table to add additional fuel).
If your dry kit is running lean it can be fixed with out moving the nozzle, by going into the PE table. But in doing so you'll be running rich if you go into PE mode and don't use your dry kit, therefore leaving a good amount of HP on the table NA.
Now Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet & 383LQ4SS both say you can do it, they have been running "2 tune on one PCM" for a while, but neither can really explain how to do it. Dave PMed me his tuners number, I would have called him but due to the weather we having out here I haven't had a chance to, but I will on Monday. IMHO nozzle placement is key to running a dry shot using a stock PCM, and having a good NA tune. I would have to say the best way to set it up would be to use the EFI Live custom OS and have it add the additional fuel that way, therefore eliminating nozzle placement all together.
Matt
If your dry kit is running lean it can be fixed with out moving the nozzle, by going into the PE table. But in doing so you'll be running rich if you go into PE mode and don't use your dry kit, therefore leaving a good amount of HP on the table NA.
Now Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet & 383LQ4SS both say you can do it, they have been running "2 tune on one PCM" for a while, but neither can really explain how to do it. Dave PMed me his tuners number, I would have called him but due to the weather we having out here I haven't had a chance to, but I will on Monday. IMHO nozzle placement is key to running a dry shot using a stock PCM, and having a good NA tune. I would have to say the best way to set it up would be to use the EFI Live custom OS and have it add the additional fuel that way, therefore eliminating nozzle placement all together.
Matt
Robert
Originally Posted by bad6as
that 125 shot with dual nozzles with the clear lid.
the two n20 streams hit eachother and then get sucked in.
how does that differ then the halo hits
the two n20 streams hit eachother and then get sucked in.
how does that differ then the halo hits
well the halo kit sprays from the front of the lid to the back with mutiple holes for the n20 to come out.....it fog's much better than my setup in that video. But they may have switched the holes from the front to the sides....i think i read that on page 1 or 2 of this thread. I wouldn't mind getting the halo bar for a second stage one day.
Hate to bring this one up from the dead, talked to Jeremy Formato today. He highly suggested hitting the MAF sensor with a dry shot so you can get the timing retarded & correct A/F ratio, and still have a strong NA tune. There might be some confusion with the way 383LQ4SS dry 300 shot was tuned too. 
Still need to call Dave's tuner to see if he can help, haven’t had time to do so yet.
Matt
Still need to call Dave's tuner to see if he can help, haven’t had time to do so yet.
Matt
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
Dont worry guys. if you ever run a dry shot and want some very fine tuning...or just cant get the dry to work...youll need to go to a tuner that really knows his stuff. Im sure Matt will have it once he tries it on the dyno. And It looks like Nitro Daves shop has it. Now I know Jeremy Formato (hes a sponsor here) does it and has a ton of experiance. Youll really need to go to one of these guys unless you have HP tuners or similair and have a a very good understanding of it.
The way we do it is log a run on some type of monitoring program..back in the day it was autotap. Then we had to see what the max values where all motor. Then we had to go into the tuning software and make changes based on what the max values where running NA. Anything above that we would add fuel and /or pull timing as needed. We didnt mess with the cells the PCM was using NA.
I hope that helps. I am not a regular tuner and dont recal what the actual tables where verbatim.
The way we do it is log a run on some type of monitoring program..back in the day it was autotap. Then we had to see what the max values where all motor. Then we had to go into the tuning software and make changes based on what the max values where running NA. Anything above that we would add fuel and /or pull timing as needed. We didnt mess with the cells the PCM was using NA.
I hope that helps. I am not a regular tuner and dont recal what the actual tables where verbatim.
Originally Posted by Matt@HSW
He highly suggested hitting the MAF sensor with a dry shot so you can get the timing retarded & correct A/F ratio, and still have a strong NA tune.
Matt
Matt
Are you talking about some other way of doing it? What you have written above is exactly the way we do it.
Dry only...in front of the MAF.
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i think he means "spraying the nozzle onto the maf", instead of "foggin the whole mixture before it goes thru the maf".
AND inmho i think the whole debate on tuning here is on wether or not your car is going constant wot 1/4 passes, or daily driveability
AND inmho i think the whole debate on tuning here is on wether or not your car is going constant wot 1/4 passes, or daily driveability
No, I have been saying that nozzle placement is the key to getting A/F correct, the further you move the "nozzle" away from the MAF the leaner your A/F will be. You & Dave have been saying that you can use a "dry nitrous tune" enrich the A/F mixture while having poor nozzle location along with not effecting the A/F ratio or timing when N/A.
Only reason why this was brought back up is we have a local customer who read this thread and is now under the impression he can spray a dry shot with poor nozzle placement and can be tuned for NA power and then have a nice A/F curve on the shot. So I called Jeremy and asked if he could do this tune and he said have him spray it with proper nozzle placement in relation to the MAF.
Agreed sobaka79, if it's a race car that sprays on every pass (or is flashed between passes for a NA tune) just add the fuel in the PE table.
Matt
Only reason why this was brought back up is we have a local customer who read this thread and is now under the impression he can spray a dry shot with poor nozzle placement and can be tuned for NA power and then have a nice A/F curve on the shot. So I called Jeremy and asked if he could do this tune and he said have him spray it with proper nozzle placement in relation to the MAF.
Agreed sobaka79, if it's a race car that sprays on every pass (or is flashed between passes for a NA tune) just add the fuel in the PE table.
Matt
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
Are you talking about some other way of doing it? What you have written above is exactly the way we do it.
Dry only...in front of the MAF.
Dry only...in front of the MAF.
Originally Posted by bad6as
what i was asking i guess is why i should go with the halo (becides the cleaner install) over a single nozzle
AND... it is completely hidden from sight (if that matters to you). My system is completely hidden. You can't tell I have it until you look at the console inside the car (or you race me
)Personally I love it, an highly recommend it.
No I never said NOZZLE placement did not play a Roll. Of course it does. If the nozzle discharge misses the mass air wires its going to be impossible to tune it.
I am referring to our HALO desighn. It fogs the intire AREA so there is no way to miss the maff wires... It mixes into the air flow better than any nozzle ever will.
Dave
I am referring to our HALO desighn. It fogs the intire AREA so there is no way to miss the maff wires... It mixes into the air flow better than any nozzle ever will.
Dave
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
Now again...I am not saying that this should be used to compensate for a dry system thats not working properly. If the dry system is very lean to begin with due to the MAF not reading the nitrous right ...youll have a very hard time doing any type of tuning via the PCM to enrich it.
This IMO would only be for systems working correctly...and then utilizing this tuning option to further fine tune your dry system. Just another possibility that we have used.
So if your 14 to 1 on a 125 shot...forget this option...it likley wont be possible.
But if your 11.2 to one on a 150+ shot and want to make that Af into an 11.7...you should be able to do it no problem.
This IMO would only be for systems working correctly...and then utilizing this tuning option to further fine tune your dry system. Just another possibility that we have used.
So if your 14 to 1 on a 125 shot...forget this option...it likley wont be possible.
But if your 11.2 to one on a 150+ shot and want to make that Af into an 11.7...you should be able to do it no problem.
If your guy got the impression from me that he could use the type of tuning we were doing to compensate for a system thats hardly registering at all...my apologies.
The likleyhood that you can ustilize the dry tuning I am discussing will be based on a combo of shot size and how much of it is registering.
I have seen 125 dry shot... that due to the way the nitrous flows over the MAF it made the car go 11 to 1 AF. In that instance the MAF freq would probably be very high would be a candidate to use the tune to adjust AF.
If that same 125 was hardly registering and had an AF of 14.5 to one...that means the MAF is barely reading anything and it will be tough to seperate the tune from the NA portion.
And even different yet...a 200 thats reading 12 to 1 (not quite where you want it)..you could probably use the computer to tune that. The MAF is seeing only a portion of what you want it to...but its still likley well above what would be reported NA. So you could probably make the 12 to 1 whatever you wanted via tuning...and retard timing as well.
Defiantely if you start off lean...it makes the tuning option more difficult.
Just more thinking out loud here...
The really good thing about making the MAF your primary control component....is it will operate linearly with differing flow rates
In other words...if you se a dry set up that uses a stand alone computer and a simple trigger wire....it just kicks it over to a different fuel schedule. If you get more or less nitrous during the run...you will go lean or rich.
But once you have the MAF based dry setup correctly...it doesnt much matter..as long as you dont exceed its total capabilities.
On the dry 300 shots I have done...they were incredibly foolproof and adaptable. Sometimes I would control the shot size by utilizing bottle pressure in addition to jet size. the MAf/computer handled any variation in flow with ease. Af was always on target...as well as timing.
The really good thing about making the MAF your primary control component....is it will operate linearly with differing flow rates
In other words...if you se a dry set up that uses a stand alone computer and a simple trigger wire....it just kicks it over to a different fuel schedule. If you get more or less nitrous during the run...you will go lean or rich.
But once you have the MAF based dry setup correctly...it doesnt much matter..as long as you dont exceed its total capabilities.
On the dry 300 shots I have done...they were incredibly foolproof and adaptable. Sometimes I would control the shot size by utilizing bottle pressure in addition to jet size. the MAf/computer handled any variation in flow with ease. Af was always on target...as well as timing.
So what is a good distance range to mount the nozzle in front of the MAF? Assuming the MAF is in a straight section of tubing w/ a 90* nozzle.
Last edited by stealth71; Mar 29, 2007 at 10:59 AM.
LOL, okay please explain this:
Why would you need a special tune if nozzle placement is fine (A/F Ratio)?
Look, I've stated this a few times now, all I have been saying is nozzle placement is key to running a dry shot with the stock PCM. As long as it is (nozzle placement) you can run a strong NA tune in it and spray a dry shot with good A/F ration and having timing pulled. You and Al have been saying you can run "2 tunes" at the same time in the PCM that won't affect each other. Why would you have to do that if nozzle placement is correct?
Now Dave is saying:
So again, now you are saying nozzle placement is key, so why would you need a "special" dry shot tune?
Al, do you have/use HP Tuners or EFI Live (or have access to it)?
Matt
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Tuned properly by someone that knows what they are doing you can set the computer tune to run a NA tune including airfuel just like any other set up. Then add or take away fuel through the PCM tune for when the nitrous hits.
Look, I've stated this a few times now, all I have been saying is nozzle placement is key to running a dry shot with the stock PCM. As long as it is (nozzle placement) you can run a strong NA tune in it and spray a dry shot with good A/F ration and having timing pulled. You and Al have been saying you can run "2 tunes" at the same time in the PCM that won't affect each other. Why would you have to do that if nozzle placement is correct?
Now Dave is saying:
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
No I never said NOZZLE placement did not play a Roll. Of course it does. If the nozzle discharge misses the mass air wires its going to be impossible to tune it.
I am referring to our HALO desighn. It fogs the intire AREA so there is no way to miss the maff wires... It mixes into the air flow better than any nozzle ever will.
Dave
I am referring to our HALO desighn. It fogs the intire AREA so there is no way to miss the maff wires... It mixes into the air flow better than any nozzle ever will.
Dave
Al, do you have/use HP Tuners or EFI Live (or have access to it)?
Matt
No,
You are twisting my words. Read carefully.......
If the nitrous discharge is not been registered by the mass air meter you are waisting your time trying to tune it. This is what is bad with a nozzle. The Mass air meter has to pick up the nitrous discharge so yes nozzle placement is critical with a Dry system. However depending on nozzle placement to tune in the air fuel is not the idea way to tune in my opinion. Final airfuel changes should be done with PCM tuning.
So to avoid all the conflict of nozzle placment run the Halo and do any tunning that may be required through the PCM. Or even better Run a wet system.
Dave
You are twisting my words. Read carefully.......
If the nitrous discharge is not been registered by the mass air meter you are waisting your time trying to tune it. This is what is bad with a nozzle. The Mass air meter has to pick up the nitrous discharge so yes nozzle placement is critical with a Dry system. However depending on nozzle placement to tune in the air fuel is not the idea way to tune in my opinion. Final airfuel changes should be done with PCM tuning.
So to avoid all the conflict of nozzle placment run the Halo and do any tunning that may be required through the PCM. Or even better Run a wet system.
Dave