halo kit vs single nozzle kit
04-01-2007, 10:45 AM
#83
Here's two more ways to tune the current dry hits. One is being used well on the new C6 Z06, it's the Power Adder vs IAT table. You log your IATs n/a then you log IATs on the spray. you'll easily see the diffference. Then in the table you add an additional fuel multiplier (like in the PE table) in temp areas you only see spraying. The two multipliers are only added together when spraying and thus your new commanded a/f on the spray. Now some will not get a good IAT reading because of nozzle location and/or a pause before IAT picks up the spray.
The other way, and works good for nozzle(s) that are to far away and giving lean condition through out rpm band. This way uses a BAP. You can simpily wire this BAP to be activated at the same time you go WOT. Then you can use the dash mounted dial to enter the desired a/f on the spray. It's basically a linear way to add fuel through higher pump pressure (kind of like the spike the pressure on the lt1 dry kits) and thus higher injector DC. Again only effects the tune while spraying.
I can also post the write up of pulling timing while spraying only if someone would like to see it.
Robert
The other way, and works good for nozzle(s) that are to far away and giving lean condition through out rpm band. This way uses a BAP. You can simpily wire this BAP to be activated at the same time you go WOT. Then you can use the dash mounted dial to enter the desired a/f on the spray. It's basically a linear way to add fuel through higher pump pressure (kind of like the spike the pressure on the lt1 dry kits) and thus higher injector DC. Again only effects the tune while spraying.
I can also post the write up of pulling timing while spraying only if someone would like to see it.
Robert
04-01-2007, 12:18 PM
#84
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well after this turned in to a tuning thread.
for a 125 rwhp shot and still have a great N/A tune i think a single nozzle will be teh best for me. Right?
for a 125 rwhp shot and still have a great N/A tune i think a single nozzle will be teh best for me. Right?
04-01-2007, 07:14 PM
#85
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Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
Dont forget...its not the MAF your aiming at. Its actually the three wires. If you miss those...or a majority of the nitrous misses those...your in trouble.
Robert I know you have had good luck aiming the nozzle directly at the wires at close range...and it certainly will make it richer...but I just hate the thought of a nozzle moving a bit and the operator not seeing it. This is just my opinion.
Obviously if the operator is on the ball he will know by eye what his proper alignment is and would check it periodically. But there are many people out there who operate nitrous...not all are the type to even pop the hood and take a look from time to time.
Not to mention I have seen changes in components such as headers and manifolds make very drastic changes the the airpath prior to the MAF. Anything that increases the pumping effect can change what areas in the intake tract have the higher velocities and affect how nitrous flows past the MAF.
We just had a guy go from a 346 to a 383...no other changes. Same intake, smae dry nozzles, same exhaust etc. He went from mid 11s for an Af ratio to mid 14s on his same 150 dry shot. The only difference was the AMOUNT of air he was moving past the MAF. It changed the entire dynamic of the flow. He ended up going wet I believe.
Anyways...there are many ways to skin this cat...alot wont even need to worry about this stuff. But it does crop up enough to discuss options and preferred methods.
Putting the nozzle very close and aiming it definately works...just be careful and use something good to secure it.
But I would like the idea of something a little more foolproof...a little more repeatable...and a little more accuracy...maybe even adjustable without computer tuning
Robert I know you have had good luck aiming the nozzle directly at the wires at close range...and it certainly will make it richer...but I just hate the thought of a nozzle moving a bit and the operator not seeing it. This is just my opinion.
Obviously if the operator is on the ball he will know by eye what his proper alignment is and would check it periodically. But there are many people out there who operate nitrous...not all are the type to even pop the hood and take a look from time to time.
Not to mention I have seen changes in components such as headers and manifolds make very drastic changes the the airpath prior to the MAF. Anything that increases the pumping effect can change what areas in the intake tract have the higher velocities and affect how nitrous flows past the MAF.
We just had a guy go from a 346 to a 383...no other changes. Same intake, smae dry nozzles, same exhaust etc. He went from mid 11s for an Af ratio to mid 14s on his same 150 dry shot. The only difference was the AMOUNT of air he was moving past the MAF. It changed the entire dynamic of the flow. He ended up going wet I believe.
Anyways...there are many ways to skin this cat...alot wont even need to worry about this stuff. But it does crop up enough to discuss options and preferred methods.
Putting the nozzle very close and aiming it definately works...just be careful and use something good to secure it.
But I would like the idea of something a little more foolproof...a little more repeatable...and a little more accuracy...maybe even adjustable without computer tuning
04-15-2007, 09:42 AM
#88
Originally Posted by bad6as
Robert
04-15-2007, 10:01 AM
#89
Originally Posted by Stanknuglet
I would just like to see a pic to give me a general idea of optimum nozzle placement.
Stock C5 air box and straight shooters (5177), this style/location of nozzles generally produces high 12 or 13 a/f (very similar to the f-bod boxes).
Todd's set-up, dual 90*s, starting a/f was 12.2:1.
C6 single nozzle, forget the actuall starting a/f but was fine/safe.
One side of my quad nozzles on dual stage. Starting a/f on 1st stg is 11.5:1 (one straight nozzle and one 90* nozzle), then when 2nd stg comes on it goes to 10.8:1. My n/a a/f is low 13's to high 12s.
Here's my first set-up on my Z06, starting a/f was about 11.5 11.7 area on a small hit. Moved to two styles of nozzles when going big (1 straight/1 90*) to maintain same basic a/f.
Here's the location that gives a 11.5:1 starting a/f area on the black wings. Beer runs this location and can verify the a/f (once he got inj upsized).
All of these examples are spraying a/f's and have no effect on n/a a/f. They are all in the neck and close to MAF, except the stock air box location that never works great.
We can clearly see that a good starting a/f is important. Why, because if any of the above set-ups want to fine tune the sprayed a/f by tweaking the PE multiplier (or wot commanded a/f), we could do this and the effect on n/a power would never be felt, you may lose a couple hp is all. But, are ya trying to win races on the spray, then fine tuning may be in order. However, with a starting a/f that is real lean, then yes, you have to take away to much from your n/a tune using the PE multiplier.
Robert
Last edited by Robert56; 04-15-2007 at 10:29 AM.
04-15-2007, 10:34 AM
#90
Originally Posted by sobaka79
i think he means "spraying the nozzle onto the maf", instead of "foggin the whole mixture before it goes thru the maf".
AND inmho i think the whole debate on tuning here is on wether or not your car is going constant wot 1/4 passes, or daily driveability
AND inmho i think the whole debate on tuning here is on wether or not your car is going constant wot 1/4 passes, or daily driveability
Robert
04-15-2007, 10:37 AM
#91
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Originally Posted by Robert56
You are missing the point all together, that's what we are talking about-two tunes in one, where one really dose not affect the other.
Robert
Robert
i followed Robert's example, it works flawlessly.
was 2stg wet, now 2stg dry, and 2 tunes in 1.
side note...Robert....scary post count bro...hahhhahaa....6666....LOL
04-15-2007, 11:35 AM
#92
Another method for adding fuel on dry hits is the CTS tricker method. You can use a resistor or potentiometer to dial in your coolant temp seen and thus add fueling, it's all in the tuner programs.
Here is the method that the ls2/ls7 generation computers are using, and it seems much better and quiker than the fuel adder vs IAT in the ls1/ls6 platform.
[QUOTE 427cicLT5]Hey Robert, In the ls2/ls7 hp software doesnt have the power adder vs IAT table.
I ended up using the injector flow rate modifier vs IAT table. The values work opposite of the regular PE table. Values are all set at 1 across the table stock and have temp values from -40 to 248 f. Setting the values to .900 will give about 1 full point richer afr. When the nitrous is sprayed the cooler air kicks in the modifier and I get more fuel. Right now I have it set to come on at 50 degrees IAT. While spraying Ive seen 30 degrees, I'll have to see how it goes when the outside temps get real hot. I might have to move up the activation point. Having the car with 12.8 to 12.9 AFR all motor, then setting the modifier to .900 will give the car 11.8 AFR while spraying. Rod[/QUOTE]
So much out there tuning wise, someone needs to put together a complete dry tuning write up, someday maybe I'll try?
Don't forget the new EFI Live that has the nitrous Valet mod; a flip of a sw and you have an instant custom timing and fuel curve while spraying only. You could even set this up on relay to be automatic when spraying.
Robert
Here is the method that the ls2/ls7 generation computers are using, and it seems much better and quiker than the fuel adder vs IAT in the ls1/ls6 platform.
[QUOTE 427cicLT5]Hey Robert, In the ls2/ls7 hp software doesnt have the power adder vs IAT table.
I ended up using the injector flow rate modifier vs IAT table. The values work opposite of the regular PE table. Values are all set at 1 across the table stock and have temp values from -40 to 248 f. Setting the values to .900 will give about 1 full point richer afr. When the nitrous is sprayed the cooler air kicks in the modifier and I get more fuel. Right now I have it set to come on at 50 degrees IAT. While spraying Ive seen 30 degrees, I'll have to see how it goes when the outside temps get real hot. I might have to move up the activation point. Having the car with 12.8 to 12.9 AFR all motor, then setting the modifier to .900 will give the car 11.8 AFR while spraying. Rod[/QUOTE]
So much out there tuning wise, someone needs to put together a complete dry tuning write up, someday maybe I'll try?
Don't forget the new EFI Live that has the nitrous Valet mod; a flip of a sw and you have an instant custom timing and fuel curve while spraying only. You could even set this up on relay to be automatic when spraying.
Robert
08-28-2007, 06:35 AM
#98
Halo Well I am coming in a little late on this subject, But yes nozzle placement affects the A/F, Yes there are many ways to adjust A/F, PE, VE IFR MAF, COT, Everyone has their own ways to do this. As Nitro Dave quoted, the first halo bar we tested using a clear lid did not have the spray pattern we liked so a new bar with the angle of spray was made to further direct the nitrous in a proper flowpath. Must understand that changing the frequency in the maf will increase A/F N/A but by usually only around .2, I.E. 13.0 to 12.8 or so. The nitrous magnifies(sort of saying) the incoming charge so that the A/F will adjust accordingly under spray. then when back to n/a the readings will differ due to the absence of the nitrous. But remember all cars are different, I have seen dry shots (not the halo) on some cars that retained a proper A/F then others that went way lean. Bottom line can you run a Halo setup and tune to have both N/A and for nitrous, Yes. Will the A/F be dead on N/A No. But the minimal power loss from going 13.0 to 12.8 A/F to me is more of a safe factor than losing a motor.. But everyone has their own ideas, methods. Just tune to your preference. Hope this helps, we are here to help and not bash anyone. Thanks MoeHorsePower Tuning....
08-28-2007, 12:30 PM
#99
Originally Posted by moehorsepower
Well I am coming in a little late on this subject, But yes nozzle placement affects the A/F, Yes there are many ways to adjust A/F, PE, VE IFR MAF, COT, Everyone has their own ways to do this. As Nitro Dave quoted, the first halo bar we tested using a clear lid did not have the spray pattern we liked so a new bar with the angle of spray was made to further direct the nitrous in a proper flowpath. Must understand that changing the frequency in the maf will increase A/F N/A but by usually only around .2, I.E. 13.0 to 12.8 or so. The nitrous magnifies(sort of saying) the incoming charge so that the A/F will adjust accordingly under spray. then when back to n/a the readings will differ due to the absence of the nitrous. But remember all cars are different, I have seen dry shots (not the halo) on some cars that retained a proper A/F then others that went way lean. Bottom line can you run a Halo setup and tune to have both N/A and for nitrous, Yes. Will the A/F be dead on N/A No. But the minimal power loss from going 13.0 to 12.8 A/F to me is more of a safe factor than losing a motor.. But everyone has their own ideas, methods. Just tune to your preference. Hope this helps, we are here to help and not bash anyone. Thanks MoeHorsePower Tuning....
Now just like nozzle tuning, if ya go big enough you'll eventually max the MAF out and go way rich. Here again the nozzles benifit over the fixed position Halo. Why, because you can turn one of your nozzles to spray part of the n2o right past the MAF, just dial in sought a/f (there is a thread with more details on nozzle tuning). Again, when going big and maxing the MAF out with the Halo, what to do, again all you can do is mess with the internal tune.
If ya have EFI Live, then you can set-up a dedicated a/f curve for the spray only. this will work for the Halo and nozzle(s) that aren't adjusted or incorrectly placed. However, most do not have the EFI live.
It's going to be great to be in the dry camp real soon, stay tuned.
Robert
08-28-2007, 12:44 PM
#100
Also, who would be running a 12.8 a/f ratio, that's really some bad advice.
Well if you read the post correctly my quote of 12.8 A/F is N/A, this is bad advice?? All I can tell you is that we tested all the kits that Nitro Dave offers. On the Halo we saw 11.5 to 11.8 on NITROUS and back to app 12.8 N/A. You don't have to believe him or myself, thats the facts. Again if you read the entire post I also say that all cars differ, not only in Nitrous applications but in Forced Induction, cams, headders ect...Everytime someone tries to offer products or service there always seems to be one to contradict the findings.
Well if you read the post correctly my quote of 12.8 A/F is N/A, this is bad advice?? All I can tell you is that we tested all the kits that Nitro Dave offers. On the Halo we saw 11.5 to 11.8 on NITROUS and back to app 12.8 N/A. You don't have to believe him or myself, thats the facts. Again if you read the entire post I also say that all cars differ, not only in Nitrous applications but in Forced Induction, cams, headders ect...Everytime someone tries to offer products or service there always seems to be one to contradict the findings.