Nitro Daves Dual stage plate system running way lean
#1
Nitro Daves Dual stage plate system running way lean
Has anybody else running a Nitro Daves dual stage plate system been having problems with running lean? I recently did an install on a TA and we took it to the dyno and started off with a 100shot and had huge lean spike and had to shut it down, Everytime we tired it would keep doing that. Im talking 12.8-1 pertect straight line across the board all motor and as soon as the WS kicks in and the nitrous acitvates its spikes up to 17.1-1. Both solenoids are spraying gas, we checked them. All lines are equal lenth from the solenoids. The kit hasnt been modified at all, its straight out of the box from Nitro Dave like it was when he ordered it 3 months ago. He took it back to the dyno today, and had another guy look at it and they messed around with it and still doing the same thing. Tried the 200 shot and it spiked lean for a min then started pulling back rich at the very end where it was way fat. (10-1 range) Not sure why they stayed in it but they did. Any suggestions? I thought maybe a delay in the nitrous would work, but that means he'd have to buy longer lines or a delay module. He payed around $1500 for this setup so you would think it would be perfect. Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Mods:
LME forged 347
Cartek 2x heads
comp 226/226
racetronix PnP
Ford SVO 36lb injectors
LS6 intake
He defiantly has enough gas and injector.
Thanks!
Mods:
LME forged 347
Cartek 2x heads
comp 226/226
racetronix PnP
Ford SVO 36lb injectors
LS6 intake
He defiantly has enough gas and injector.
Thanks!
Last edited by Z'mnypit; 04-11-2007 at 01:25 PM.
#2
Damn! nice car in your sig first off!!
If the kit pulls off the fuel rail (schrader test port) it will always have a lean spike for a second until the pump catches up. The only way around this is a standalone fuel pump/fuel cell or a return style fuel system. The injectors will starve for fuel for just a second before catching up. If it is STAYING at 17:1 a/f there is not enough fuel coming through the plate, try changing the jetting.
If the kit pulls off the fuel rail (schrader test port) it will always have a lean spike for a second until the pump catches up. The only way around this is a standalone fuel pump/fuel cell or a return style fuel system. The injectors will starve for fuel for just a second before catching up. If it is STAYING at 17:1 a/f there is not enough fuel coming through the plate, try changing the jetting.
#6
Originally Posted by 2thousand2
Damn! nice car in your sig first off!!
If the kit pulls off the fuel rail (schrader test port) it will always have a lean spike for a second until the pump catches up. The only way around this is a standalone fuel pump/fuel cell or a return style fuel system. The injectors will starve for fuel for just a second before catching up. If it is STAYING at 17:1 a/f there is not enough fuel coming through the plate, try changing the jetting.
If the kit pulls off the fuel rail (schrader test port) it will always have a lean spike for a second until the pump catches up. The only way around this is a standalone fuel pump/fuel cell or a return style fuel system. The injectors will starve for fuel for just a second before catching up. If it is STAYING at 17:1 a/f there is not enough fuel coming through the plate, try changing the jetting.
Originally Posted by Lythropus
Subscribing...how large of a shot did you intend to run on each stage?
Originally Posted by Lythropus
I'm assuming it's this plate system...
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#8
FormerVendor
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Ok,
Sorry I have not made it to the board since last week.
In your set up you have a built engine. (What is the HP being put out by the motor alone)
The racetronix fuel system is only good for about 650 rear wheel hp. With a built engine and a 200 shot I am willing to bet that you are straining the fuel system.
Basically what is happening is that when the nitrous hits the fuel pump is trugling to recover. Then on the top end its starting to gradually recover and strts richening back up.
The way to see if this is the problem is to watch fuel pressure with a fuel pressure gauge. When the system hits I bet the fuel pressure drops.
I promise you that our plate design will blow any dual nozzle kit out of the water. All the plates are flow tested before they ship so there is a machanical problem somewhere.
If you will let me help you I will walk you through the steps of locating the problem.
Lets start with checking the fuel pressure.
Dave
Sorry I have not made it to the board since last week.
In your set up you have a built engine. (What is the HP being put out by the motor alone)
The racetronix fuel system is only good for about 650 rear wheel hp. With a built engine and a 200 shot I am willing to bet that you are straining the fuel system.
Basically what is happening is that when the nitrous hits the fuel pump is trugling to recover. Then on the top end its starting to gradually recover and strts richening back up.
The way to see if this is the problem is to watch fuel pressure with a fuel pressure gauge. When the system hits I bet the fuel pressure drops.
I promise you that our plate design will blow any dual nozzle kit out of the water. All the plates are flow tested before they ship so there is a machanical problem somewhere.
If you will let me help you I will walk you through the steps of locating the problem.
Lets start with checking the fuel pressure.
Dave
#9
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Ok,
Sorry I have not made it to the board since last week.
In your set up you have a built engine. (What is the HP being put out by the motor alone)
The racetronix fuel system is only good for about 650 rear wheel hp. With a built engine and a 200 shot I am willing to bet that you are straining the fuel system.
Basically what is happening is that when the nitrous hits the fuel pump is trugling to recover. Then on the top end its starting to gradually recover and strts richening back up.
The way to see if this is the problem is to watch fuel pressure with a fuel pressure gauge. When the system hits I bet the fuel pressure drops.
I promise you that our plate design will blow any dual nozzle kit out of the water. All the plates are flow tested before they ship so there is a machanical problem somewhere.
If you will let me help you I will walk you through the steps of locating the problem.
Lets start with checking the fuel pressure.
Dave
Sorry I have not made it to the board since last week.
In your set up you have a built engine. (What is the HP being put out by the motor alone)
The racetronix fuel system is only good for about 650 rear wheel hp. With a built engine and a 200 shot I am willing to bet that you are straining the fuel system.
Basically what is happening is that when the nitrous hits the fuel pump is trugling to recover. Then on the top end its starting to gradually recover and strts richening back up.
The way to see if this is the problem is to watch fuel pressure with a fuel pressure gauge. When the system hits I bet the fuel pressure drops.
I promise you that our plate design will blow any dual nozzle kit out of the water. All the plates are flow tested before they ship so there is a machanical problem somewhere.
If you will let me help you I will walk you through the steps of locating the problem.
Lets start with checking the fuel pressure.
Dave
Motor is a forged LME 347, made 393.7 on the motor. I understand the restrictions on racetronix, but even on the 100 shot we were having that problem. That would still put the motor shy of 500hp with a 100shot. And theres no way its maxed out on that.
But your prolly right about straining the fuel pump, I was looking over the setup and this is what I see as the problem, off the fuel rail that a 2 ft feed line, then it T's off to 2- 18' lines going to the solenoids, then from the solenoids there are 2- 2ft lines to the plate. The lenghts may not be exact but looks close to that. Thats a long way for the fuel to travel before it even gets there. So it does sound like this could be the problem.
There is a fuel pressure gauge in the car, I told the owner to hit it with the small jets after work to see what the pressure does. Hes suppose to let me know this after noon. Im open to anything you want me to try...
I think he is going to call you this afternoon. He said he was anyways.
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Sounds like the pump can't keep up to me. I believe Dave sells stand alone systems to solve that problem
I am sort of suprised he was going to even try spraying that much without a standalone and race gas.
I am sort of suprised he was going to even try spraying that much without a standalone and race gas.
#11
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Originally Posted by Z'mnypit
But your prolly right about straining the fuel pump, I was looking over the setup and this is what I see as the problem, off the fuel rail that a 2 ft feed line, then it T's off to 2- 18' lines going to the solenoids, then from the solenoids there are 2- 2ft lines to the plate. The lenghts may not be exact but looks close to that. Thats a long way for the fuel to travel before it even gets there. So it does sound like this could be the problem.
#12
Originally Posted by Bad Habit Bird
Sounds like the pump can't keep up to me. I believe Dave sells stand alone systems to solve that problem
I am sort of suprised he was going to even try spraying that much without a standalone and race gas.
I am sort of suprised he was going to even try spraying that much without a standalone and race gas.
I sprayed 250 on my TNT F1 kit on a 408ci/ractronix/42lb injectors and I didnt have the first problem. It was even going way rich above 5000rpm
#14
FormerVendor
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Originally Posted by Z'mnypit
True, but when the kit is active, its still a long ways for it to travel.
Watching the fuel pressure gauge will tell us if that is the problem.
If fuel pressure is not a problem we need to start going up on the fuel jet. You should start seeing the airfuel getting richer with the jet changes. If the fuel pressure is staying rock solid and jet changes are not helping we have another problem somewhere else.
As far as fuel delivery I have seen one car with the same set up as the other run out of fuel and the other one being fine..
Dave
#15
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Yes that is alot of plennum area to fill.
Watching the fuel pressure gauge will tell us if that is the problem.
If fuel pressure is not a problem we need to start going up on the fuel jet. You should start seeing the airfuel getting richer with the jet changes. If the fuel pressure is staying rock solid and jet changes are not helping we have another problem somewhere else.
As far as fuel delivery I have seen one car with the same set up as the other run out of fuel and the other one being fine..
Dave
Watching the fuel pressure gauge will tell us if that is the problem.
If fuel pressure is not a problem we need to start going up on the fuel jet. You should start seeing the airfuel getting richer with the jet changes. If the fuel pressure is staying rock solid and jet changes are not helping we have another problem somewhere else.
As far as fuel delivery I have seen one car with the same set up as the other run out of fuel and the other one being fine..
Dave
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Originally Posted by Ray@Nitrous Outlet
This would not be an issue as the lines between the fuel rail and the solenoids are pressureized when you crank the car.
#17
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Originally Posted by Loudmouth LS1
Not second guessing you, just trying to learn a little something for my own experiences. I was under the impression that when the solenoid suddenly opens, it's gonna loose some pressure from that pressure that's built up in the line and I figured the less line it had to travel/repressurize the faster it would recoop and restabilize, no?
Dave
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
You are correct..
Dave
Dave
#19
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The point I was trying to get across is all of the lines between the fuel rail and the solenoid will be pressurized when the pump primes.....when the kit activates and the fuel solenoid opens it will need to fill the lines from the solenoid to the nozzle/plate. There will be a slight pressure drop but the upstream lines are still full, they are under flowing fuel pressure instead of static pressure. How long it takes to recover will be a factor of the plenum volume that needs to be filled downstream of the solenoid and the flow rate of the fuel pump.
To reduce a lean spike from this occurence it is better to shorten/reduce the plenum volume on the downstream side, or between the solenoid and the nozzle/plate
To reduce a lean spike from this occurence it is better to shorten/reduce the plenum volume on the downstream side, or between the solenoid and the nozzle/plate
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Originally Posted by Ray@Nitrous Outlet
The point I was trying to get across is all of the lines between the fuel rail and the solenoid will be pressurized when the pump primes.....when the kit activates and the fuel solenoid opens it will need to fill the lines from the solenoid to the nozzle/plate. There will be a slight pressure drop but the upstream lines are still full, they are under flowing fuel pressure instead of static pressure. How long it takes to recover will be a factor of the plenum volume that needs to be filled downstream of the solenoid and the flow rate of the fuel pump.
To reduce a lean spike from this occurence it is better to shorten/reduce the plenum volume on the downstream side, or between the solenoid and the nozzle/plate
To reduce a lean spike from this occurence it is better to shorten/reduce the plenum volume on the downstream side, or between the solenoid and the nozzle/plate