MadMike 97 Z28

iTrader: (3)

as you see in my sig I have a 97 Z28. so I need to know what would be the best system to use as a beginner. my understanding is that OBII LT1's are limited in tuning systems available.

What about Jet Dynamic Spectrum Tuner? Is this a good system to learn with? What other options are there?

koolaid_kid

iTrader: (21)

The only other option is LT1Edit. It is limited in what it can do, is expensive for what you get, can only do two vehicles at the most, and has almost no support. If I had it to do over again, I would go with Jet (actually TunerCat for OBDII).
The other option is to convert to OBDI and get the original TunerCat, which is what I am in the process of doing.

MadMike 97 Z28

iTrader: (3)

whats the benefit of the OBDI tunercat vs. the OBDII tunercat (JET)?

koolaid_kid

iTrader: (21)

Price and tuneability.
Price for tunercat and cable, ~125-150, vs. $400-500.. Will tune all 94-95 fbodys, no limits like OBDII.
Scanner s/w, free or up to $125.
Fewer restrictions, lots more on-line support.
Would need an OBDI PCM, not expensive.

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

The OBD1 and OBD2 PCM's are very similar...the disadvantage would be, if you need to pass a plug in OBD2 emissions test, an OBD1 PCM won't pass. The investment in Jet DST seems expensive...but compare what any of us using HPTuners or EFILive on LS1 stuff are paying for software...it's not so bad, and it's worth keeping the cars proper pcm in my opinion.

koolaid_kid

iTrader: (21)

Unfortunately, you are comparing apples to oranges. The LSx solutions are total solutions, well thought out and fully supported. They include the programmer, the scanner/datalogger, and analysis s/w. You can even import the wideband data.
For LT1s, each thing is separate, not integrated, and importing the wideband data is a PITA, at best. And the makers of the LSx solutions have decided that LT1s do not have a wide enough base to warrant developing a product.
AFA emissions, I agree. Of course, you could always plug the OBDII PCM back in to pass the test...

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

While I do agree with you that the OBD2 solutions for LS1 and newer stuff are much better integrated, I disagree on the apples to oranges comment.

LT1Edit for OBD2, is like trying to paint the Mona Lisa with a light brite, Jet DST/TunerCat is on the other hand, fantastic, and as good as the VCM Editor side of HPTuners (no custom operating systems, but everything else is there)...Jet DST is $475 from Summit, tack on another $70 for MXScan from Moates and you're at $545, HPTuners is $500 for basic and $650 for pro right from the manufacturer...MXScan isn't quite as good, but you can export the data to Excel, and if you don't want to buy excel, you can use OpenOffice for free and it works pretty much exactly the same...once it's in a spreadsheet you can do pretty much anything with the data.

Importing wideband data couldn't be easier than it is with an LT1, there are spare 0-5 volt inputs on the LT1 PCM's, both OBD1 and OBD2 (for oil temp and other things that aren't used on all LT1 cars) that you can simply connect to an output for a wideband, and use excel to convert the data into air fuel.

Once an LT1 is modded further from stock, plugging a stock OBD2 PCM back in in place of a tuned OBD1, is not going to get you an inspection sticker either, we all know that.

It will cost you more to set yourself up with proper OBD2 tuning and logging software than it will cost you for OBD1, but in the end, it will be a better solution allowing you less headaches, and more flexibility in your other decisions (camshaft, heads, stroker, blower, turbo) while still being able to have a happy (no check engine light) PCM that reports your cars proper VIN number.

koolaid_kid

iTrader: (21)

I'm glad you made my point so well.
1) Use Tunercat (Jet) to download to the PCM.
2) Use a scanner (you used MxScan as an example) to collect the data.
3) Use a spreadsheet (you gave two examples) to view the data.
4) Learn how to use the spreadsheet of choice to analyze the data.
5) Use the analyzed data to make changes to the correct parameters of the Tunercat file.
6) Goto 1)

Somewhere up there, should be included:
Find PCM pins that are expected to be 0-5v and are not currently being used. Find a way to splice into said wires with the analog output of the wideband of choice. Make multiple runs, comparing analog output of native wideband chart vs. collected wideband data from spliced lines. Of course, data would most likely need to be imported into a spreadsheet for said comparisons. Make adjustments to formula as required, repeat.

No matter how you slice it, Tunercat is simply a way to massage PCM parameters. It is not, and most likely will never be, an integrated tuning suite.

MadMike 97 Z28

iTrader: (3)

I think I'm gonna go with the Jet system. I don't particularly care to swap pcms and want to have the best possible tunning system. thanks for the info.

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

And you do it differently with the LS1? I use HPTuners all the time, and I dislike connecting a wideband through the EIO...I find that the issues with the EIO and PCM and wideband using different grounds in the car tend to get you shitty air fuel data...as a result, after getting sick of that issue in friends cars with their EIO versions of HPTuners, I bought my own, non EIO version, and my wideband goes through the PCM's "EGR Pintle Position" input. My wideband controller gets power and ground from the same places the PCM gets power and ground, and my wideband data has been trouble free...I've set a few other friends cars up this way to make it easier for me to tune them (using HPTuners and OBD1 TunerCat depending on the car).

If taking 4 seconds to look up the PCM pinout on google and find the pin to use for the input is too hard, you're just not trying...if grabbing a spare pin with wire already on it from a junkyard harness (that you can get for free from like 40 bazillion GM vehicles if you're at a salvage yard and simply ask "how much?" again...you're just not trying at all.

I'll never understand people who are enthusiastic about cars, and will do all sorts of wrench turning and other difficult stuff...but when it comes to connecting 3 wires at the PCM it's suddenly unfathomable.

I didn't disagree that HPTuners (and EFILive though I haven't used it) are better integrated solutions, but TunerCat and a good scanning package is actually more powerful software. Just because you have to make your own spreadsheets/histograms doesn't make it a bad thing...if you're using HPTuners and only using the histograms that are setup at installation, you haven't come close to seeing the real power of what you can do in a PCM...yes it's nice to be able to configure more of them in HPTuners, and yes it's great to see them live while you're scanning rather than playing data back through them later, but saying it's apples to oranges is saying that TunerCat can't be used to tune a car properly...LT1 Edit (OBD1 and OBD2) is like I said, using an etch a sketch to paint the Mona Lisa, but TunerCat is not...it's more like comparing 2 different kind of apples.

wads97gts

iTrader: (3)

Probably a good way to go, but doesn't the new EFIlive support back to obd1 vehicles?

koolaid_kid

iTrader: (21)

Ah, Mike, I love the way you dance around the issue. Good job, although as an electrical engineer I am amused about the wiring issues, including the inability to find a common ground. I resolved this one long ago and have never had and issue since.
Since this thread is not about LSx solutions vs. LTx solutions, we should probably continue this elsewhere. I reserve the right to disagree.

To the OP, Tunercats comes in two versions; one with 2 licenses and one with 4 licenses. Extra licenses are $50 each, btw, and you don't save any money by getting 4 at the start. I have seen the 2 license version at Jegs lately.