So who's the LS1 GOD?
12-28-2009, 01:01 PM
#41
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Jpajks:
I understand your point of view and I really do not take issues with the major points you have expressed.
I am just telling you what I have learned from experience. Every minute these shops spend time answering the phone they are not in their working and fine-tuning someone's build (may be your own). And maybe for every 10 calls they get, half are just shopping around, and a few may just be trying to pick' their brain' and then never buy from them.
But, there are several Good LS1 shops that answer PM's, return phone calls,etc, and if you are a legitimate buyer they will spend time giving you advice.
In my case, I just learned that if you call them and all ready know what you want..and you have the money now..it goes a lot better. And the customer is ultimately responsible for choosing the proper Heads, cam, etc. So, you have to do a lot of research yourself.
So, do not misunderstand. I am not excusing bad business practices or defending all shops. I am just trying to share what I have learned.
In your particular circumstance perhaps you should try another shop. Believe me, I am on your side. Just trying to give you some tips on a better experience.
And yes, I agree great customer service brings customers back.
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
I understand your point of view and I really do not take issues with the major points you have expressed.
I am just telling you what I have learned from experience. Every minute these shops spend time answering the phone they are not in their working and fine-tuning someone's build (may be your own). And maybe for every 10 calls they get, half are just shopping around, and a few may just be trying to pick' their brain' and then never buy from them.
But, there are several Good LS1 shops that answer PM's, return phone calls,etc, and if you are a legitimate buyer they will spend time giving you advice.
In my case, I just learned that if you call them and all ready know what you want..and you have the money now..it goes a lot better. And the customer is ultimately responsible for choosing the proper Heads, cam, etc. So, you have to do a lot of research yourself.
So, do not misunderstand. I am not excusing bad business practices or defending all shops. I am just trying to share what I have learned.
In your particular circumstance perhaps you should try another shop. Believe me, I am on your side. Just trying to give you some tips on a better experience.
And yes, I agree great customer service brings customers back.
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
12-28-2009, 01:48 PM
#42
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Jpajks:
I understand your point of view and I really do not take issues with the major points you have expressed.
I am just telling you what I have learned from experience. Every minute these shops spend time answering the phone they are not in their working and fine-tuning someone's build (may be your own). And maybe for every 10 calls they get, half are just shopping around, and a few may just be trying to pick' their brain' and then never buy from them.
But, there are several Good LS1 shops that answer PM's, return phone calls,etc, and if you are a legitimate buyer they will spend time giving you advice.
In my case, I just learned that if you call them and all ready know what you want..and you have the money now..it goes a lot better. And the customer is ultimately responsible for choosing the proper Heads, cam, etc. So, you have to do a lot of research yourself.
So, do not misunderstand. I am not excusing bad business practices or defending all shops. I am just trying to share what I have learned.
In your particular circumstance perhaps you should try another shop. Believe me, I am on your side. Just trying to give you some tips on a better experience.
And yes, I agree great customer service brings customers back.
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
I understand your point of view and I really do not take issues with the major points you have expressed.
I am just telling you what I have learned from experience. Every minute these shops spend time answering the phone they are not in their working and fine-tuning someone's build (may be your own). And maybe for every 10 calls they get, half are just shopping around, and a few may just be trying to pick' their brain' and then never buy from them.
But, there are several Good LS1 shops that answer PM's, return phone calls,etc, and if you are a legitimate buyer they will spend time giving you advice.
In my case, I just learned that if you call them and all ready know what you want..and you have the money now..it goes a lot better. And the customer is ultimately responsible for choosing the proper Heads, cam, etc. So, you have to do a lot of research yourself.
So, do not misunderstand. I am not excusing bad business practices or defending all shops. I am just trying to share what I have learned.
In your particular circumstance perhaps you should try another shop. Believe me, I am on your side. Just trying to give you some tips on a better experience.
And yes, I agree great customer service brings customers back.
Good luck.
..WeathermanShawn..
I fully understand what your saying. As you said there are a lot of other shops out there who will take the time, so in essence they will get my business. My experience won't be affected whether they call me back or not. The parts will still be purchased and every day life will continue and the end result I will still be happy. So I will not bother calling them so they can spend more time on other people's build or any other matter of business they have to conduct because I most certainly don't want to take away from other people. Thanks for the advice however. It was much appreciated.
12-28-2009, 01:50 PM
#43
There is a BIG difference between a CUSTOMER and someone calling to pick your brain knowing he has zero intention of doing business with you now or in the future... We take TONS of calls everyday with people asking for advice/needing tech help/having trouble with the parts they purchased from Ebay/Shop X that doesnt have a physical address or phone number etc etc... We do our very best to help these individuals, but at the same time doing this takes away from our ability to provide CUSTOMER service to those who do want to do business.... Its a double edged sword really....
Everynow and then one of the guys you helped will call back months later and order something... Most of the time it doesnt happen though...
Bottom line, you will find that MOST (not all) shops out there are more than willing to help if you are a potential customer ( no matter the purchase amount)... After doing this for many years, you will find some shops that have no interest in discussing options if they dont see a potential sale at the end of the conversation or in the near future....
Everynow and then one of the guys you helped will call back months later and order something... Most of the time it doesnt happen though...
Bottom line, you will find that MOST (not all) shops out there are more than willing to help if you are a potential customer ( no matter the purchase amount)... After doing this for many years, you will find some shops that have no interest in discussing options if they dont see a potential sale at the end of the conversation or in the near future....
12-28-2009, 02:52 PM
#44
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There is a BIG difference between a CUSTOMER and someone calling to pick your brain knowing he has zero intention of doing business with you now or in the future... We take TONS of calls everyday with people asking for advice/needing tech help/having trouble with the parts they purchased from Ebay/Shop X that doesnt have a physical address or phone number etc etc... We do our very best to help these individuals, but at the same time doing this takes away from our ability to provide CUSTOMER service to those who do want to do business.... Its a double edged sword really....
Everynow and then one of the guys you helped will call back months later and order something... Most of the time it doesnt happen though...
Bottom line, you will find that MOST (not all) shops out there are more than willing to help if you are a potential customer ( no matter the purchase amount)... After doing this for many years, you will find some shops that have no interest in discussing options if they dont see a potential sale at the end of the conversation or in the near future....
Everynow and then one of the guys you helped will call back months later and order something... Most of the time it doesnt happen though...
Bottom line, you will find that MOST (not all) shops out there are more than willing to help if you are a potential customer ( no matter the purchase amount)... After doing this for many years, you will find some shops that have no interest in discussing options if they dont see a potential sale at the end of the conversation or in the near future....
12-28-2009, 03:39 PM
#47
Very well put Ron! I would be willing to bet you just made some new sales. You can't be so high on the throne to stop talking to people about their car. It's that personal touch with getting to know someone and what they're looking at with their setup versus what you have to offer. Most of the time it's not people calling you that know exactly what cam/heads/etc...that they want. It's people with a budget in mind and a direction they want to go with the car from mild to wild. Granted sometimes you don't end up with the sale, but lots of times you will if you're personable.
When I worked at TEA there were a lot of tirekickers, but then again there were a lot of people that called only wanting to order a cam and ended up purchasing the cam, heads, headers, converter, and intake. It's a catch 22 and you guys are right sometimes it's really hard when it's a small shop that the big name guys are the people doing the tuning, install, and sales work all combined. The shops over the years that have made their name started small and have grown into what they are today.
As far as tuning goes, there are many people out there who tune. When you take a car to be tuned that has been tuned by someone else. That person will pick apart the other guy's tune. Tuning varies as much as the setup components. The bottom line is to find someone who you can talk to and that cares about your goals and what you want to accomplish because in the end you're the one who has to be happy with it. I've seen some gigantic cams 240ish duration @.050" on 346 cube motors idle great because the tuner wanted to spend countless hours getting it perfect; on the flip side I've seen 224 cams idle like 240ish cams because of the tune. Like I said find someone you're comfortable with and someone that's willing to spend some time talking to you about your individual setup and goals you have before making your choice.
To all the guys that have your name in this thread, be glad that people have chosen your name because of something you've done for them. The biggest advertisement ever is word of mouth. If you treat people right it will do more advertising than you could ever pay for.
When I worked at TEA there were a lot of tirekickers, but then again there were a lot of people that called only wanting to order a cam and ended up purchasing the cam, heads, headers, converter, and intake. It's a catch 22 and you guys are right sometimes it's really hard when it's a small shop that the big name guys are the people doing the tuning, install, and sales work all combined. The shops over the years that have made their name started small and have grown into what they are today.
As far as tuning goes, there are many people out there who tune. When you take a car to be tuned that has been tuned by someone else. That person will pick apart the other guy's tune. Tuning varies as much as the setup components. The bottom line is to find someone who you can talk to and that cares about your goals and what you want to accomplish because in the end you're the one who has to be happy with it. I've seen some gigantic cams 240ish duration @.050" on 346 cube motors idle great because the tuner wanted to spend countless hours getting it perfect; on the flip side I've seen 224 cams idle like 240ish cams because of the tune. Like I said find someone you're comfortable with and someone that's willing to spend some time talking to you about your individual setup and goals you have before making your choice.
To all the guys that have your name in this thread, be glad that people have chosen your name because of something you've done for them. The biggest advertisement ever is word of mouth. If you treat people right it will do more advertising than you could ever pay for.
12-29-2009, 09:35 AM
#48
Ive always had good experience calling the vette doctors, ECS, texas speed, LG, and tony Mamo with no implying I was going to buy something from them. I felt I was always treated like I was the only call if the day and they talked me through what I wanted to do.
No if you stay on the phone with them for an hour, I can see the shops point of view
No if you stay on the phone with them for an hour, I can see the shops point of view
12-29-2009, 03:25 PM
#49
The only true tuning god is the owner of the car. No professional tuner can afford to scan the car anytime, make changes whenever they are needed, and spend the time necessary to fix every little thing. No matter how good a tuner is, they are more of a tuning fairy sprinkling tuning dust and disappearing into the night.
12-29-2009, 05:47 PM
#50
This thread makes for a very interesting read. It touches on what the modern performance shops biggest dilemma is.
Times used to be when a customer would just say "I want 600 hp" or "I want it to run 10s at the track" or whatever their goal for the car was. The shop would then spec out the parts necessary and do the job. Nowadays, the vast majority of customers prefer to put the car together themselves or with some buddies and just use a shop for the things they don't feel they can tackle on their own, be that tuning or welding or whatever the case. The big issue is that 99% of the do it your self guys don't have the knowledge base to select the right parts for what they are after and or the skill to install them properly.
Internet forums are both the cause of and solution to this problem. People read about others doing it themselves and are encouraged to go for it on their own as well. The forums have huge databases of information from all sorts of peoples experiences available at the click of a mouse to sift thru. Information on just about any sort of modification you could dream of has been posted at one time or another, somewhere. So much information, in fact, that many people wind up boggled by all of it and have no clear direction for their project. What parts to buy, where to find the best prices on them, how to match them to the other parts they have/want? Search n00b!!! Reading comprehension owns u!!!
How about just calling a shop and asking them? Well, this is how shops have traditionally made their money, ya know? Calling them and asking them how to do it so you can do it yourself is really rubbing their nose in it. They want your business so, should they tell you, hoping that you will bring it there because they knew what they were talking about on the phone? Should they tell you just drop it off if you want their knowledge to make your car better? Should they share some basic information and point you in the right direction? Should they just ignore the phone calls all together?
It is basically the same thing as calling H&R Block and asking them how to prepare your own taxes. How is H&R Block going to make any money if they tell everyone who calls how to file their own taxes? This has somehow become widely accepted in the automotive performance industry as something to do though and expect good answers. I wonder how a shop is supposed to make any money in this sort of atmosphere?
The tunes are another great example. Everyone expects to pay XXX for a tune from a shop. They all expect to make good power and not blow up. Most also expect for the car to drive perfect as well, start up the first time in any sort of weather, never buck or stall out and probably get stupendous fuel economy to boot. Only problem is XXX only covers enough time for the tuner to do a WOT tune and take an educated guess at drivability, cold startup etc. A full tune, including perfect drivability would have to cost YYYY to be profitable. No one is going to pay YYYY though, when they can get a tune for XXX because anyone paying for a tune doesn't really know what they should be getting to start with, or they would be doing that themselves as well.
So, tuners are forced to charge the lower rates of a WOT only tune and try to make really good guesses on the other stuff to keep most customers satisfied in the limited time they can spend in order to make a profit. On top of this, the tuner has to be able to spot any errors the home builder made assembling the frankenstein they brought to be tuned before it causes any catastrophic problems! "Hope the rod bolts are tightened properly so I don't get blamed for chucking one of this guy's rods thru the block because of the tune."! Then, as the cherry on top of it all, the tuner has to worry about their work being stolen and plagiarized by all of the eager do-it-your-self people and other "pro" tuners who can't really tune up a ham sandwich.
Fun business!
Times used to be when a customer would just say "I want 600 hp" or "I want it to run 10s at the track" or whatever their goal for the car was. The shop would then spec out the parts necessary and do the job. Nowadays, the vast majority of customers prefer to put the car together themselves or with some buddies and just use a shop for the things they don't feel they can tackle on their own, be that tuning or welding or whatever the case. The big issue is that 99% of the do it your self guys don't have the knowledge base to select the right parts for what they are after and or the skill to install them properly.
Internet forums are both the cause of and solution to this problem. People read about others doing it themselves and are encouraged to go for it on their own as well. The forums have huge databases of information from all sorts of peoples experiences available at the click of a mouse to sift thru. Information on just about any sort of modification you could dream of has been posted at one time or another, somewhere. So much information, in fact, that many people wind up boggled by all of it and have no clear direction for their project. What parts to buy, where to find the best prices on them, how to match them to the other parts they have/want? Search n00b!!! Reading comprehension owns u!!!
How about just calling a shop and asking them? Well, this is how shops have traditionally made their money, ya know? Calling them and asking them how to do it so you can do it yourself is really rubbing their nose in it. They want your business so, should they tell you, hoping that you will bring it there because they knew what they were talking about on the phone? Should they tell you just drop it off if you want their knowledge to make your car better? Should they share some basic information and point you in the right direction? Should they just ignore the phone calls all together?
It is basically the same thing as calling H&R Block and asking them how to prepare your own taxes. How is H&R Block going to make any money if they tell everyone who calls how to file their own taxes? This has somehow become widely accepted in the automotive performance industry as something to do though and expect good answers. I wonder how a shop is supposed to make any money in this sort of atmosphere?
The tunes are another great example. Everyone expects to pay XXX for a tune from a shop. They all expect to make good power and not blow up. Most also expect for the car to drive perfect as well, start up the first time in any sort of weather, never buck or stall out and probably get stupendous fuel economy to boot. Only problem is XXX only covers enough time for the tuner to do a WOT tune and take an educated guess at drivability, cold startup etc. A full tune, including perfect drivability would have to cost YYYY to be profitable. No one is going to pay YYYY though, when they can get a tune for XXX because anyone paying for a tune doesn't really know what they should be getting to start with, or they would be doing that themselves as well.
So, tuners are forced to charge the lower rates of a WOT only tune and try to make really good guesses on the other stuff to keep most customers satisfied in the limited time they can spend in order to make a profit. On top of this, the tuner has to be able to spot any errors the home builder made assembling the frankenstein they brought to be tuned before it causes any catastrophic problems! "Hope the rod bolts are tightened properly so I don't get blamed for chucking one of this guy's rods thru the block because of the tune."! Then, as the cherry on top of it all, the tuner has to worry about their work being stolen and plagiarized by all of the eager do-it-your-self people and other "pro" tuners who can't really tune up a ham sandwich.
Fun business!
So true 
my car has been touched up more times than I can count.....depends on your tuner 
12-29-2009, 06:18 PM
#53
I have seen junk from too many big dollar tuners.
That is part of the evolution. I saw a tune by wait4me that he would never put out today, but it was done years ago.
Any big tuner using only HPT can't tune!
I don't tune with EFILive, but I use EFILive as a tool
I can Edit Calibrations on GM's factory level.
I can see some 10,000 different fields to change in some programs. These are not hidden as some people like to say.
I built a 4L80E GTO tune just to see if I could and it looks all stock.
The tuners that can see all of these and tune these are GODs. Now will they do that for you?
I can name just a handful of people that can do this and I don't include myself as one of them.
GTO test .bin
That is part of the evolution. I saw a tune by wait4me that he would never put out today, but it was done years ago.
Any big tuner using only HPT can't tune!
I don't tune with EFILive, but I use EFILive as a tool
I can Edit Calibrations on GM's factory level.
I can see some 10,000 different fields to change in some programs. These are not hidden as some people like to say.
I built a 4L80E GTO tune just to see if I could and it looks all stock.
The tuners that can see all of these and tune these are GODs. Now will they do that for you?
I can name just a handful of people that can do this and I don't include myself as one of them.
GTO test .bin
12-29-2009, 06:56 PM
#55
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If you're near Ohio hit up Tracey Scott at CincySpeed. He's the best I've come across, very knowledgeable. His street tunes are dead on as well. I think we only gained like 3hp on the dyno tune he did. My Z28 is my DD and I drive it year round with no issues. I can honestly say I never imagined a 414+ rwhp 6spd would do as well as this one does in the snowy/slushy weather we have in Dayton. I have referred tons of people to him and they have all been very satisfied.
12-30-2009, 01:19 PM
#59
I have seen junk from too many big dollar tuners.
That is part of the evolution. I saw a tune by wait4me that he would never put out today, but it was done years ago.
Any big tuner using only HPT can't tune!
I don't tune with EFILive, but I use EFILive as a tool
I can Edit Calibrations on GM's factory level.
I can see some 10,000 different fields to change in some programs. These are not hidden as some people like to say.
I built a 4L80E GTO tune just to see if I could and it looks all stock.
The tuners that can see all of these and tune these are GODs. Now will they do that for you?
I can name just a handful of people that can do this and I don't include myself as one of them.
GTO test .bin
That is part of the evolution. I saw a tune by wait4me that he would never put out today, but it was done years ago.
Any big tuner using only HPT can't tune!
I don't tune with EFILive, but I use EFILive as a tool
I can Edit Calibrations on GM's factory level.
I can see some 10,000 different fields to change in some programs. These are not hidden as some people like to say.
I built a 4L80E GTO tune just to see if I could and it looks all stock.
The tuners that can see all of these and tune these are GODs. Now will they do that for you?
I can name just a handful of people that can do this and I don't include myself as one of them.
GTO test .bin
In my experience, I've found the owner of the cars gets afraid I'm going to say "ok, that'll be $2000" when I'm done because I want to spend so much time on it...so when I do tune a car for someone local I say "look, pro's charge a price and often times more by the hour...I'm doing this in my spare time, these are my costs (fuel, credits, dyno time, wideband, any repairs I need to make to a vehicle in order to tune it), but after that, I just want this much, and if it starts taking me more than this long...we'll make another decision then, you might be happy with it where it is at that point, you might want me to keep working on it..." and we go from there, so far I don't think anyone has been upset with me yet.
That said...my own car, gets something changed all the time...it's never "tuned"...it's always "tuned more than it used to be, but still tuning it"...I drive the thing 150 miles a day, and I'm still tweaking the tune...trying to find every last bit of efficiency (without sacrificing my driving habits), trying to make it run as smooth and clean and happy as possible, and trying to get as much power out of it as I can...I think right now it's about all out of power without more physical parts because as has been mentioned...if the engine is running, and the fuel system can keep up with it, making horsepower with the tune is the easy part...but just this past week I made a couple more changes to the spark advance and VE table in hopes of getting a bit more mpg...a lot of the minor minor changes I make to my own car...I think a lot of people would drive it before and after and not even notice a difference...but I do...so where do we stop when tuning someone elses car?
Nobody is a tuning god for anyone elses car...but there are a LOT of people who try really hard to do the best they can...there's already been a lot of great advice in this thread though, so I'll shut up now.
12-30-2009, 03:34 PM
#60
No there are some here
A better question is, for our platforms, why do you NEED to do that? I used an editor to segment swap binaries for all of the GenIII stuff that wants to run 80s over 60s since I can't do it with HPT, but I don't have a reason to do much more. I work from about 9am until 2-4AM every day because my business is a one-man show. I am buried under a myriad of emails and PMs from people who "got tired of paying XYZ shop so they bought HPT to tune themselves" and now they can't be bothered by the learning curve or their own research, they expect me to tell them how through email or PMs. They are not customers nor will they ever be, but every time I pass one of those messages over they make a thread or bitch in a thread about how I didn't reply to them.... It's not like they say "I wanted this guys, time, knowledge, and experience for free, KNOWING that this is how he feeds his family and he wouldn't give it to me...." They simply say that you never replied. I have a troll that follows me from board to board. He wanted me to do a mail order tune but ended up going with another tuner. He was unhappy with the result and wanted to send me the PCM to look at on the bench and go through and tell him what I saw. I quoted him a price and he threw a fit... he really wanted me to do it for free to "help out a member of the LS1 community". HE WAS NEVER MY CUSTOMER.
On the other hand I have customers that buy a $10-20 custom cable of one type or another and now I am supposed to answer every question they have about tuning their swap for the next 6 months or I'm some kind of bad guy for offering to do the tuning through email (which obviously is a paid service) rather than typing an 80 page email in reply to "how do i toon?".
Sorry for the rant; this last page hits home!