Why NOT to do mail order tunes - 66 rwhp gain inside!
06-04-2010, 07:25 AM
#21
I'm having trouble with the blanket statement about email tunes as well.
I've seen dyno tunes were the final AFR & Timing calibration caused Knock & very lean AFR's on the street. The dyno was "not" loading the same as real world driving conditions.
I do not understand why some spend so heavily on cams & mods then cut the corner with calibration!
All of these things we have, Tuning Software, Dyno's etc. are tools, if we use them properly.....excellent results.
Sometimes when we are working on our cars we don't have the proper tool so we improvise & get err done.
Sometimes I don't have a Dyno within 300 miles so I street tune & get err done.
Phil made excellent comments above regarding mail order tunes.
Tools are tools, by themselves they are useless, the results are up to the tool using the tools!
I've seen dyno tunes were the final AFR & Timing calibration caused Knock & very lean AFR's on the street. The dyno was "not" loading the same as real world driving conditions.
I do not understand why some spend so heavily on cams & mods then cut the corner with calibration!
All of these things we have, Tuning Software, Dyno's etc. are tools, if we use them properly.....excellent results.
Sometimes when we are working on our cars we don't have the proper tool so we improvise & get err done.
Sometimes I don't have a Dyno within 300 miles so I street tune & get err done.
Phil made excellent comments above regarding mail order tunes.
Tools are tools, by themselves they are useless, the results are up to the tool using the tools!
06-04-2010, 07:28 AM
#22
Mail order tunes for more involved setups are intended to get the car running, not be the final tune.
I send out alot of mail order tunes, mostly for more radical cars. I recently sent out a E40 2 bar tune for a turbo with a cam, and big injectors. The customer told me it started and ran almost perfectly. Once we got it on the dyno, we saw we had a 10:1 A/F. Nice and safe. A few little tweaks and it was right where it needed to be.
I've done mail order tunes and had customers tell me they ran better than their live-in-person tune.
Of course, they can't all be perfect........
I send out alot of mail order tunes, mostly for more radical cars. I recently sent out a E40 2 bar tune for a turbo with a cam, and big injectors. The customer told me it started and ran almost perfectly. Once we got it on the dyno, we saw we had a 10:1 A/F. Nice and safe. A few little tweaks and it was right where it needed to be.
I've done mail order tunes and had customers tell me they ran better than their live-in-person tune.
Of course, they can't all be perfect........
06-04-2010, 08:49 AM
#23
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
Mail order tunes for more involved setups are intended to get the car running, not be the final tune.
I send out alot of mail order tunes, mostly for more radical cars. I recently sent out a E40 2 bar tune for a turbo with a cam, and big injectors. The customer told me it started and ran almost perfectly. Once we got it on the dyno, we saw we had a 10:1 A/F. Nice and safe. A few little tweaks and it was right where it needed to be.
I've done mail order tunes and had customers tell me they ran better than their live-in-person tune.
Of course, they can't all be perfect........
I send out alot of mail order tunes, mostly for more radical cars. I recently sent out a E40 2 bar tune for a turbo with a cam, and big injectors. The customer told me it started and ran almost perfectly. Once we got it on the dyno, we saw we had a 10:1 A/F. Nice and safe. A few little tweaks and it was right where it needed to be.
I've done mail order tunes and had customers tell me they ran better than their live-in-person tune.
Of course, they can't all be perfect........
Now guys, I don't mean to start ****, but what I'm saying is if you have a mail order tune check up on it. Not to get other sponsors money, or bash anything, but for the well being of your engine.
So the tune is on. Thats good news. The tune is off? Get that **** dialed in correctly before you have problems.
That is all.
06-04-2010, 09:26 AM
#27
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
There is a possibility as this is unfolding a little more that the MAF could be on its way out although the hertz did seem to be normal for WOT.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying it is the tuner's lack of knowledge. It isn't.
I'm saying that the process lends itself to stuff like this. While many will be ok, some will run into issues.... and those without widebands won't even know it until they take it to a dyno or their car blows to pieces.
06-04-2010, 10:39 AM
#28
This post is intended to sell your tuning skills and sell tunes at your shop. You even have your grand opening specials posted. That is fine to do being a sponsor. But 50 and 66 hp gains are not anywhere typical from anyone's tunes. Back up your claims by showing how bad the mail order tune was to cause a 17.8 and leaner A/F ratio. Most people that have done any tuning on these cars at all can look at a file and see how good or bad it is to cause something like that.
06-04-2010, 11:20 AM
#29
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
This post is intended to sell your tuning skills and sell tunes at your shop. You even have your grand opening specials posted. That is fine to do being a sponsor. But 50 and 66 hp gains are not anywhere typical from anyone's tunes. Back up your claims by showing how bad the mail order tune was to cause a 17.8 and leaner A/F ratio. Most people that have done any tuning on these cars at all can look at a file and see how good or bad it is to cause something like that.
And I'm not saying that the mail order tune is bad. The tuner is a very good tuner. But the process of mail order tunes is flawed because it provides the tuner with zero feedback. It doesn't let them know that something isn't right.
So what I'm saying is if you have serious mods, take your car to a shop or get it done in person. Or have your own wideband sensor so you can give the tuner feedback. And then of course, as a sponsor it is my right to post my rates and grand opening days =)
06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
#31
You made a full lean pull on an over timed car... maybe it's a good thing your customer doesn't know better, otherwise he'd probably be pretty upset with you. I tend to put the safety of my customer's cars ahead of making myself look like a hero with dyno numbers. If the AFR goes north of 13.2-13.3 or if it knocks, you need to lift pedal. You said it was dead lean and I can SEE knock in the graph.
When these MAFs go bad, they almost never quit, they just report low. When they report low not only do you end up dead lean and with no codes, but in a higher timing area as well. Did you tune around a bad MAF?
Over the years I have had about a dozen cars that already had a mail order tune come in the door and they were dead lean on my own mail order tune (and some of them had mail orders from other tuners). All of them had MAFs that had wandered off. If I didn't know better and I wasn't able to spot the low reported frequency, I may have just tuned right around it thinking the curve needed more. A few of them, I did add about 30-45% to MAF table so that they could drive until they got a new MAF. After each of those cars got their MAFs replaced, their WOT AFR went from the crazy lean spike that makes me lift throttle to something in a safe range without any tuning at all.
Mail order tunes for internal mods are to get the car to you so that it can be tuned, not for WOT beating.
When these MAFs go bad, they almost never quit, they just report low. When they report low not only do you end up dead lean and with no codes, but in a higher timing area as well. Did you tune around a bad MAF?
Over the years I have had about a dozen cars that already had a mail order tune come in the door and they were dead lean on my own mail order tune (and some of them had mail orders from other tuners). All of them had MAFs that had wandered off. If I didn't know better and I wasn't able to spot the low reported frequency, I may have just tuned right around it thinking the curve needed more. A few of them, I did add about 30-45% to MAF table so that they could drive until they got a new MAF. After each of those cars got their MAFs replaced, their WOT AFR went from the crazy lean spike that makes me lift throttle to something in a safe range without any tuning at all.
Mail order tunes for internal mods are to get the car to you so that it can be tuned, not for WOT beating.
Last edited by Frost; 06-04-2010 at 12:56 PM. Reason: spellin'
06-04-2010, 12:52 PM
#32
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06-04-2010, 01:11 PM
#34
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
I should have stopped it for sure. And if something would have happened because of that, thats why I have the business insurance that I never want to use.
I'm just happy that I could fix it, because thats how the car was driven for god knows how many WOT pulls.
06-04-2010, 01:19 PM
#35
Very well said Frost!
Just about every car I do with more than say 60-70k miles has a MAF sensor reading way lower than it should. MAF sensors degrade with mileage period.. Doesn't matter how clean you try to keep them.
Just about every car I do with more than say 60-70k miles has a MAF sensor reading way lower than it should. MAF sensors degrade with mileage period.. Doesn't matter how clean you try to keep them.
06-04-2010, 01:23 PM
#36
You made a full lean pull on an over timed car... maybe it's a good thing your customer doesn't know better, otherwise he'd probably be pretty upset with you. I tend to put the safety of my customer's cars ahead of making myself look like a hero with dyno numbers. If the AFR goes north of 13.2-13.3 or if it knocks, you need to lift pedal. You said it was dead lean and I can SEE knock in the graph.
I had one yesterday exactly as stated here. Dead lean, +30% LTFT, +50% STFT. Turns out the MAF was idling about 2000 Hz, which gave it away. Installed new MAF, BINGO! Almost perfect on a stock MAF table.
06-04-2010, 01:25 PM
#37
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
And Frost, for the record I agree with you. I cut the pulls short when I see lean conditions. And in this instance I goofed. Out of the many cars I've tuned, I've always shut them down when I saw lean or excessive knock retard.
I'm not happy that I ran it through. And I did not run it through to make myself look like a hero.
There really isn't much defense for this, so I'm simply admitting I made a mistake and will not make the same mistake again.
I'm not happy that I ran it through. And I did not run it through to make myself look like a hero.
There really isn't much defense for this, so I'm simply admitting I made a mistake and will not make the same mistake again.
06-04-2010, 02:27 PM
#39
Other than a mail order tune to get the vehicle running, A good tuner will tune all the tables on the street or a loaded dyno. Sounds like you are just doing WOT pull's on the dyno and raping the VE,and MAF tables? Also, I think I would be looking for another tuner if you had my car and I read this"It literally maxed out my wideband setting interfacing with HPT which reads up to a 17.8 AFR. It started lean and went even worse."
06-04-2010, 02:38 PM
#40
FormerVendor
Thread Starter
Just so you know my practice has always been to take every car i tune on the dyno out on the street and verify and/or make adjustments to the tune. I was not expecting to even tune the car until i saw how far off it was running. We did take it out afterwards.