Why NOT to do mail order tunes - 66 rwhp gain inside!
06-04-2010, 02:59 PM
#41
I have had sensors go bad while tuning before and it just spikes lean once it hits a certain RPM. I honestly thought with such a high AFR, zero audible knock and zero knock on the scanner that my sensor had just taken a ****. In fact I've never seen an AFR that pegs the lean side of my wideband and still revs smoothly until this car.
I should have stopped it for sure. And if something would have happened because of that, thats why I have the business insurance that I never want to use.
I'm just happy that I could fix it, because thats how the car was driven for god knows how many WOT pulls.
I should have stopped it for sure. And if something would have happened because of that, thats why I have the business insurance that I never want to use.
I'm just happy that I could fix it, because thats how the car was driven for god knows how many WOT pulls.
06-05-2010, 12:08 AM
#43
I seen the same kind of thing on my corvette. Had it mail order tuned and drove it for a year. Finally got EFI Live and thought I would check it out and found that the car was running in the +10 range on the fuel trims "lean" and wide open was around 14 AFR. Pretty scary. I just started over with a stock tune and got the trims down to 0 and the WOT AFR to 12.9. Much safer and better mileage and everything. I'll never trust a mail order tune again.
06-05-2010, 10:24 PM
#46
FormerVendor
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 1,573
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing I find really boring about this thread is the "Classic, I tune cars and know everything," crowd that doesn't pay to be a sponsor running their mouths with impunity.
If you think mail-order is going to be a silver bullet, then obviously you'll need to sign at least three disclaimer pages, including waiving hot coffee burns as well.
Not everyone has a LSx shop within their fingertips to perform onsite services.
Mail order is a two way street between the install and the tuner for sure. No need to demonize it.
If you think mail-order is going to be a silver bullet, then obviously you'll need to sign at least three disclaimer pages, including waiving hot coffee burns as well.
Not everyone has a LSx shop within their fingertips to perform onsite services.
Mail order is a two way street between the install and the tuner for sure. No need to demonize it.
06-06-2010, 04:26 PM
#48
Launching!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Disclaimer: I know nothing about cars, not a mechanic, nor a tuner. I drive my car that's it lol. But.....
Don't all motors run just slightly different? I mean, they don't ALL roll off the lot making XYZwhp. Some run alittle differently. So wouldn't a mail order tune be a statistical guess as to how the average car will react to said A/B/C mods? I mean you can say "95% of the cars I've tuned with XYZ mods needed these ABC values put into the tune"...What about the 5% whose cars runs slightly different? Those cars that simply aren't in the middle of the bell curve...they might require alittle tweaking.
You really need to have someone experienced there on the spot doing a street&dyno tune, monitoring all of the values and what's going on. Otherwise you're just making an educated guess as to how most cars with similar modifications run.
I'm not saying mail order tunes can't be dead on...but chances are w/o some sort of feedback, they likely won't be 100%. So you can either keep sending data back and forth and mailing your stuff with your tuner until it's right....or just go to a reputable shop and watch them do it in a few hours or less.
Don't all motors run just slightly different? I mean, they don't ALL roll off the lot making XYZwhp. Some run alittle differently. So wouldn't a mail order tune be a statistical guess as to how the average car will react to said A/B/C mods? I mean you can say "95% of the cars I've tuned with XYZ mods needed these ABC values put into the tune"...What about the 5% whose cars runs slightly different? Those cars that simply aren't in the middle of the bell curve...they might require alittle tweaking.
You really need to have someone experienced there on the spot doing a street&dyno tune, monitoring all of the values and what's going on. Otherwise you're just making an educated guess as to how most cars with similar modifications run.
I'm not saying mail order tunes can't be dead on...but chances are w/o some sort of feedback, they likely won't be 100%. So you can either keep sending data back and forth and mailing your stuff with your tuner until it's right....or just go to a reputable shop and watch them do it in a few hours or less.
06-06-2010, 07:59 PM
#49
Disclaimer: I know nothing about cars, not a mechanic, nor a tuner. I drive my car that's it lol. But.....
Don't all motors run just slightly different? I mean, they don't ALL roll off the lot making XYZwhp. Some run alittle differently. So wouldn't a mail order tune be a statistical guess as to how the average car will react to said A/B/C mods? I mean you can say "95% of the cars I've tuned with XYZ mods needed these ABC values put into the tune"...What about the 5% whose cars runs slightly different? Those cars that simply aren't in the middle of the bell curve...they might require alittle tweaking.
You really need to have someone experienced there on the spot doing a street&dyno tune, monitoring all of the values and what's going on. Otherwise you're just making an educated guess as to how most cars with similar modifications run.
I'm not saying mail order tunes can't be dead on...but chances are w/o some sort of feedback, they likely won't be 100%. So you can either keep sending data back and forth and mailing your stuff with your tuner until it's right....or just go to a reputable shop and watch them do it in a few hours or less.
Don't all motors run just slightly different? I mean, they don't ALL roll off the lot making XYZwhp. Some run alittle differently. So wouldn't a mail order tune be a statistical guess as to how the average car will react to said A/B/C mods? I mean you can say "95% of the cars I've tuned with XYZ mods needed these ABC values put into the tune"...What about the 5% whose cars runs slightly different? Those cars that simply aren't in the middle of the bell curve...they might require alittle tweaking.
You really need to have someone experienced there on the spot doing a street&dyno tune, monitoring all of the values and what's going on. Otherwise you're just making an educated guess as to how most cars with similar modifications run.
I'm not saying mail order tunes can't be dead on...but chances are w/o some sort of feedback, they likely won't be 100%. So you can either keep sending data back and forth and mailing your stuff with your tuner until it's right....or just go to a reputable shop and watch them do it in a few hours or less.
ALL of these cars and motors have a certain amount of adjustability built into them. We refer to this adjustability as fuel trims, and idle trims, and high and low octane spark, spark retard, and adaptive idle spark, and so on.
A good mail order tune, done by a very experienced tuner, based on CORRECT information relayed to them by the car owner or builder, should yeild a mail order tune that is AS CLOSE as a factory tune could be for a factory car.
Face it, NO FACTORY calibration is spot on for every car. They've all got some knock retard. The idle trims are off 10% or more. The WOT fueling is overly rich at best.
We recently finished a 427 GTO. I made a quick tune based off another 416 GTO with a very similar cam. Plugged in the VE table, idle airflow, and injector flow, along with the timing adjustments to the idle tables, HO/LO tables, etc, and the car fired up (in SD), and most all of the VE table was within +/- 5%. WOT fueling was about 12:1 with a pretty substantial dip to about 10.5:1 around 4000. Point is, overall it was VERY close. All built off another tune from a completely different car, different sized engine, different injectors, etc.
Point here is this; If the provided info is correct, and the tuner is experienced, the results are not typical of what the OP (Andrew) saw.
06-06-2010, 08:34 PM
#50
06-06-2010, 08:38 PM
#51
Launching!
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, let me just say, I'm still having issues with the tune in my car with a small cam. I got a mail order tune from a reputable tuner here on tech. Or so I thought. He emailed me about 7 different tunes saying that would fix it. I sent him datalogging files on the car. He did get it to idle but that was about it. With that tune, Dyno'ed on a Dynojet, I put out 306 at the wheels. Pretty pathetic right? So, after spending 320 bucks on that tune, found out about a guy who did dyno tuning not far from my house. 400 dollars later, it still has issues. Its getting better and at least this guy is willing to work with me. He put it on his Mustang dyno and came up with 280 at the wheels on the mail tune. After an hour, he got power up to 330 at the wheels. Yeah, I said it. A 50 HP tune. To hell with ever getting anything else tuned by mail. Its crazy. No offense to anyone who does mail order tunes but I think there are just too many factors out there to properly tune a car without seeing it. Hell, I'm having trouble with it on a dyno! Anyway, just my opinion. No offense to anyone was intended.
06-06-2010, 08:53 PM
#52
TECH Enthusiast
Wouldn't you think this same scenario would apply to factory cars? They all are close to the same, yet each one is slightly different. ALL of them have the same tune. Right? There's no one to provide feedback to the GM calibrators.
ALL of these cars and motors have a certain amount of adjustability built into them. We refer to this adjustability as fuel trims, and idle trims, and high and low octane spark, spark retard, and adaptive idle spark, and so on.
A good mail order tune, done by a very experienced tuner, based on CORRECT information relayed to them by the car owner or builder, should yeild a mail order tune that is AS CLOSE as a factory tune could be for a factory car.
Face it, NO FACTORY calibration is spot on for every car. They've all got some knock retard. The idle trims are off 10% or more. The WOT fueling is overly rich at best.
We recently finished a 427 GTO. I made a quick tune based off another 416 GTO with a very similar cam. Plugged in the VE table, idle airflow, and injector flow, along with the timing adjustments to the idle tables, HO/LO tables, etc, and the car fired up (in SD), and most all of the VE table was within +/- 5%. WOT fueling was about 12:1 with a pretty substantial dip to about 10.5:1 around 4000. Point is, overall it was VERY close. All built off another tune from a completely different car, different sized engine, different injectors, etc.
Point here is this; If the provided info is correct, and the tuner is experienced, the results are not typical of what the OP (Andrew) saw.
ALL of these cars and motors have a certain amount of adjustability built into them. We refer to this adjustability as fuel trims, and idle trims, and high and low octane spark, spark retard, and adaptive idle spark, and so on.
A good mail order tune, done by a very experienced tuner, based on CORRECT information relayed to them by the car owner or builder, should yeild a mail order tune that is AS CLOSE as a factory tune could be for a factory car.
Face it, NO FACTORY calibration is spot on for every car. They've all got some knock retard. The idle trims are off 10% or more. The WOT fueling is overly rich at best.
We recently finished a 427 GTO. I made a quick tune based off another 416 GTO with a very similar cam. Plugged in the VE table, idle airflow, and injector flow, along with the timing adjustments to the idle tables, HO/LO tables, etc, and the car fired up (in SD), and most all of the VE table was within +/- 5%. WOT fueling was about 12:1 with a pretty substantial dip to about 10.5:1 around 4000. Point is, overall it was VERY close. All built off another tune from a completely different car, different sized engine, different injectors, etc.
Point here is this; If the provided info is correct, and the tuner is experienced, the results are not typical of what the OP (Andrew) saw.
06-06-2010, 09:03 PM
#53
FormerVendor
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Virginia Beach,Virginia
Posts: 2,991
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Dude,i've seen alot of "reputable" tuners that can't tune a car properly in person.Not all tunes or even tuners are created equal.If you got a problem with a mail order tune-blame the tuner,not mail order tunes.Ed fixes so many tunes it's crazy.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
06-06-2010, 09:07 PM
#54
Launching!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wouldn't you think this same scenario would apply to factory cars? They all are close to the same, yet each one is slightly different. ALL of them have the same tune. Right? There's no one to provide feedback to the GM calibrators.
ALL of these cars and motors have a certain amount of adjustability built into them. We refer to this adjustability as fuel trims, and idle trims, and high and low octane spark, spark retard, and adaptive idle spark, and so on.
A good mail order tune, done by a very experienced tuner, based on CORRECT information relayed to them by the car owner or builder, should yeild a mail order tune that is AS CLOSE as a factory tune could be for a factory car.
Face it, NO FACTORY calibration is spot on for every car. They've all got some knock retard. The idle trims are off 10% or more. The WOT fueling is overly rich at best.
We recently finished a 427 GTO. I made a quick tune based off another 416 GTO with a very similar cam. Plugged in the VE table, idle airflow, and injector flow, along with the timing adjustments to the idle tables, HO/LO tables, etc, and the car fired up (in SD), and most all of the VE table was within +/- 5%. WOT fueling was about 12:1 with a pretty substantial dip to about 10.5:1 around 4000. Point is, overall it was VERY close. All built off another tune from a completely different car, different sized engine, different injectors, etc.
Point here is this; If the provided info is correct, and the tuner is experienced, the results are not typical of what the OP (Andrew) saw.
ALL of these cars and motors have a certain amount of adjustability built into them. We refer to this adjustability as fuel trims, and idle trims, and high and low octane spark, spark retard, and adaptive idle spark, and so on.
A good mail order tune, done by a very experienced tuner, based on CORRECT information relayed to them by the car owner or builder, should yeild a mail order tune that is AS CLOSE as a factory tune could be for a factory car.
Face it, NO FACTORY calibration is spot on for every car. They've all got some knock retard. The idle trims are off 10% or more. The WOT fueling is overly rich at best.
We recently finished a 427 GTO. I made a quick tune based off another 416 GTO with a very similar cam. Plugged in the VE table, idle airflow, and injector flow, along with the timing adjustments to the idle tables, HO/LO tables, etc, and the car fired up (in SD), and most all of the VE table was within +/- 5%. WOT fueling was about 12:1 with a pretty substantial dip to about 10.5:1 around 4000. Point is, overall it was VERY close. All built off another tune from a completely different car, different sized engine, different injectors, etc.
Point here is this; If the provided info is correct, and the tuner is experienced, the results are not typical of what the OP (Andrew) saw.
Last edited by squale iii; 06-06-2010 at 09:12 PM.
06-06-2010, 09:12 PM
#55
TECH Enthusiast
Dude,i've seen alot of "reputable" tuners that can't tune a car properly in person.Not all tunes or even tuners are created equal.If you got a problem with a mail order tune-blame the tuner,not mail order tunes.Ed fixes so many tunes it's crazy.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
I did not ask you guys those questions to make you moist or start a internet argument or whatever... One thing I am learning coming into the LSX game, its clickish and everybody has there ego.... I do not doubt your skill set, I just asked that to prove that you guys either tune or have a in house tuner whether its and employee or contractor that you hire out.... Again nobody is questioning you ability, my opinions of you guys are high.
But all of that other bullshit, pre set alliances and hostle tone, I m not the one bra......
06-06-2010, 09:17 PM
#56
Launching!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 289
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dude,i've seen alot of "reputable" tuners that can't tune a car properly in person.Not all tunes or even tuners are created equal.If you got a problem with a mail order tune-blame the tuner,not mail order tunes.Ed fixes so many tunes it's crazy.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
I have seen Ed throw in a base tune in a new engine combo and the thing start up idle perfect and only pick up a slight amount on the dyno.His mail order tuning is better than most tuners dyno tuning.
