Quick question for you tuning gurus. I will be recieving my HPTuners shortly. And I've been doing some lurking/researching, and it seems to be that the more I read the more im confused. Mainly in reguards to tuning AFR(OL and CL). Just want to make sure Im on the right track here, beacuse it seem that everyone has a different "strategy" to tuning. I just want someone to verify that the MAF, should be tuned first, followed by PE, than lastly the VE table. correct? And this has to be done both in OL and CL correct? Then, once I have the VE table where I want it, LTFTs and STFTs should then be taken care of. And then, on to tuning idle, timing, etc. Is this right? Everybody has a different opinion and its hard to find a "tried and true" way of tuning.
BTW, its a Gen IV, LS2 with basic bolt-ons. LTs, exhaust, intake. I do have a Wideband.

 

It doesn't really matter if you calibrate MAF or VE first, so long as you're only doing one at a time. If you make sure that you're only working off of one table, then it's easier to confirm that the 10% change you made really was 10%. I generally find it easier to do the MAF first, but that's just me. I do all of my fuel calibration in open loop, since it eliminates the "moving target" associated with closed loop switching. Besides, my wideband is far more accurate than the stock O2's, so I can always get that much closer. If you have good tools in front of you, I suggest you use them. Once OL fuel delivery is correct, you'll find that your closed loop operation should be already taken care of since there's no real correction necessary.

 

I tune the VEs first using either the LTFT or STFTs. It is certainly good in theory, to use a wideband. The issue, however, is getting the offset correct (accurate enough) to get the VE tuned perfectly. I used the STFTs to get mine dead on, because they adjust a lot quicker. After the VE, you can get the MAF table in line. One you get it dialed in, you can start on your PE.

 

You are gonna want to set your PE first. Then do VE and MAF.

 

No; actually I disable PE while tuning VE and MAF. The MAF will determine the fueling on a MAF based system. When you change any part of the intake track, you throw off the MAF table, and it will in turn throw off your WOT fueling. The computer will take the MAF flow reading and use the PE multiplier to determine WOT fueling.
I had to go SD because my MAF ran out of range (13000+ at 5400rpm) and went lean at top end. (Blind !!)
Same with MAF'less. I have my VE table dialed in within 0-1/-1 so now I have set my PE table and enabled it, and it is DEAD ON what I command.
(Now I'm working in the METH to the equation)

 

I'm a new tuner, 2 years now. So is here is how I approached it. I had my tuning mentor pick a dyno location to get the cruising & WOT aspects of the tune sorted.

Then as I began to tune & learn I was very careful to stay away from changing any WOT throttle calibration.

I worked Idle, part throttle & cruising calibration in MAF only. I think MAF only is easier to tune initially & less intimidating to new tuners. These are really the more difficult aspects of tuning & it is drivability results that are so important.

I started by using the fuel trims, again a safety margin. As well it take more attempts which in our case is more practice. I believe the software is somewhat complicated to use so practice is a good thing.

As I became more comfortable with the software & began to understand what was happening & why, then I installed the WB & moved into the other parts of the tuning process.

 

IMO, using the narrowbands to tune VE/MAF is the most efficient way. When it's all said and done, your wideband sensor isn't going to be in the car full time controlling STFT/LTFT...your narrowband 02's are. The only condition here is to make sure you have good 02's. I usually recommend new NGK 02's whenever I do an extensive build that requires tuning.

PE of course, is done with a wideband ONLY.

 

There's really no need to disable PE mode, you can log % error of your afr versus your commanded AFR when you have a wideband...set the PE table to command the AFR you think you want...then adjust the MAF and/or VE tables to actually get your commanded to equal your actual all the time...if your wideband and narrowbands don't agree on what stoich is though, when you turn closed loop back on, your fuel trims will drift and other fueling will be off...so you need to make sure you have accurately determined what voltage out of your wideband really is stoich...when you're done with that...you can then adjust the PE table to change the target AFR to find the most power. VE/MAF is the calibration side of tuning...PE is the making power side of it that you do after you calibrate...but since I don't like going lean when tuning, I still don't disable PE.

 

I only disable PE when I tune the MAF because I will "ease" the engine up to 5000+ to get an accurate reading for the MAF. When I have a good clean (VERY close) table, I turn it back on and run WOT and make the last adjustments to the MAF table using the wideband to get command in line for the last few hundred rpm (I don't change command)
After I'm dialed in, I disable LTFT so my WOT stays dead on.
I agree with Damian; the O2s in the car are what the computer is going to look at, so I use them to tune VE and MAF. Getting the wideband offset right and everything "agreeing" can be a PITA. Using the histograns and STFTs, it's just a wash and repeat until it's dead on.
Just my method and it seems to work; Great drivability, great gas milage, and GREAT power

 

It takes about 15 seconds to get the wideband and narrowbands to agree on stoich...start the car up and let it warm up and get into closed loop...then look at the wideband while holding the engine at steady state...there's your number. Make 1 correction to the wideband PID equation so it's right, and you're done.

The MAF axis has no RPM involved...you can get airflow through that sensor at all sorts of RPM's...and if you are making "final tweaks" to the MAF off the wideband anyways...just tune with it from the get go.

Also not sure why you disable LTFT's...if you tune a car when it's 65 and sunny at sea level with very low humidity, and it's owner takes a road trip into the mountains on a rainy day...when they park to go to the bathroom and get back in the car, it will have to re-learn...it's quick...but still has to happen...or if it's extra cold out when they take the car off the trailer, it has to re-learn...if you calibrate it properly and let the LTFT's do their job, unless the narrowbands are shitty, or there's exhaust leaks or something else messing with them (gigantic cams) the car usually just winds up always running right...fuel trims aren't your enemy...you only need to disable them when tuning to avoid chasing your tail in circles...

 

I am running SD, and to be honest, I disable my (MY car) LTFTs for one MAJOR reason. The absolute BEST FI tuner I know, told me to try it, and I did and it works GREAT!. My car is a weekend driver. Since the LTFTs are disabled, they never go positive, which could make my ARF pig rich (since I'm tuned pretty rich with the ALKY anyway.) I have run WOT on a 90* day (last week) and on a 50* morning (last week) and other than making a "little" more boost when cool, my AFRs are dead on in both.
Not suggesting it for anyone else, but it has worked well for us.

 

Pretty sure STFTs can go positive too...

 

This is precisely the difference between the $300 toys that are labeled "wideband" and real professional level equipment. I can't say I've ever had an offset issue using my good UEGO controller. Time and accuracy are both more than worth it to me to justify the better equipment just so that I don't have to deal with that.

 

I use innovate; Pretty good (fairly expensive) stuff I tune my own and my friends vehicles, so I can't justify really high $$$ equipment, as I'm sure most guys doing their personal tuning can't. Since the difference in a few tenths (12.6 - 12.8) makes basically NO difference in power, I just want to make sure my VE (or MAF when applicable) tables are VERY close using the "in car" O2 sensors. It seems to work, because my wife's cam/bolt on car drives like silk! It is as crisp and responsive as any performance car I've ever driven.

Positive LTFTs affect WOT fueling.

 

My personal experience with their product has been pretty much the exact opposite. In all the years of teaching, talking with students and working first hand with shop owners, no other single brand of wideband has come anywhere near close to the number of failures, bad signals, burned out sensors, and other general headaches as the Innovate stuff. While they spend a LOT on marketing and lots of people seem to use them, they also seem to have the most problems. Just my $0.02

 

Maybe that's why I'm having trouble getting it to read correctly in HPTuners
The Innovate brand is definitely pushed.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I've been using Innovate widebands for several years, and have had none of the problems mentioned above - as long as stupid people who don't know how to respect equipment kept their hands off of it... Also, I have used the serial output for years, and that gets rid of the whole issue of offsets... what the wideband says, EFILive gets as the input...

 

Or it could be the EFILive setup. A friend of mine has EFILive and has told me many times that he has no issues getting the two to read the same, but was not able to help his friend get his HP setup to match exactly both low and high.

 

That could certainly be a wiring problem between the cars/wideband controllers/tuner cables...

...whenever possible (especially in a personal vehicle), I prefer to power and ground the controller off of it's own circuit in the car, and use an unused input on the cars PCM rather than the HPTuners cable for the sensor data...I actually use the EGR pintle position signal input on the LS1 PCM in my car...I haven't used EFILive, I'd like to some day, but for now, I use HPTuners, and have never had a single issue getting the wideband controller AFR to equal the AFR I see in the scanning software, and once I nail down what voltage it see's as stoich when closed loop is holding my car there, it's never drifted...I've always found the narrowbands to be incredibly close to what the wideband documentation said stoich should be also...and when I can, I've trimmed the closed loop switch points around a bit and gotten them to agree with that documentation exactly...it probably helps that I have a strong background in servo/closed loop control systems...but it's absolutely possible, and once you have a method, it doesn't take long at all.

Also...most of the vehicles I tune wind up being one of 2 extremes...a car that the owner has spent a lot of money on, and is perfectly fine with buying a dedicated wideband controller for me to install in it, or a basic bolt on's truck/car where they're looking for more transmission tuning work than anything else...the basic heads/exhaust/gears cars/trucks dial in quickly without the need for THAT much attention with a wideband (a couple pulls with an external unit is good enough) and it's more spending time in their passenger seat while they drive their regular roads saying "I wish it shifted here" or "can you keep the converter from locking up here"...