Bill's 02 Z-28 SS

I know I have seen a lot of posting on LS1 EDIT and HP TUNERS. I need to make a decision by Monday which one I am going to buy and need your help. I am in the business of developing electronic systems (hardware & Software). Here is the issue I have – as my systems mature; we find and fix a great many problems, then the system(s) runs like a clock. When we first release the system, yes it works but my customer finds problems regardless of how well we test it.
Now to my issue here, most people here state how great HPTUNER is but it is relatively new. LS1 EDIT has been around for a while and is only a programmer where HP TUNERS is a programmer and scan tool. The only point there is more software and issues to deal with. By the way I have AUTOTAP and EFILive V6 so the scan part is not important to me. So which Programmer is the best and has the least mount of problems???
Thanks
Bill

ataylors

iTrader: (2)

I have been thinking the same things. I do like that the HP Tuners product doesnt lock itself so it does have some resell value and other uses. It also seems that the support is better, what I hear a lot of people say about Edit is that you have to find someone else to ask to find answers.

horist

HP Tuners is a new product to us, however they've spent alot of time testing it themselves. Keith (Magnus) has a sick fast firebird and did all kinds of testing on his vehicle and many others.

Plus if any bugs are discovered he's emailing them out as soon as the patch is written. From a hardware perspective the hardware is very sound. It does its job flawlessly so no fears of a bug in the hardware causing an issue.

Few things to keep in mind with HP Tuners:
1. It has a resale value
2. It's not PCM locked, it's year and model locked
3. It communicates at a 4x speed whereas LS1 Edit is only 2x (meaning reads and writes are extremely fast)

Plus as mentioned support seems great. HP tuners is actually listening to customer or potential customer requests and incorporating those into their software (on their message board they have a request section) ...

I don't believe you'll have any issues going w/HP Tuners

dlandsvZ28

Another point to consider is viability of the business (I won't mention the name). With HP Tuners just coming on board, and EFI Live close behind (maybe by end of year) and also considering the fact that both have excellent service, will all three businesses be able to compete?

Service and quality of the product of each is going to get new customers and keep keep existing ones.

So unless 'one' changes their ways and starts to compete with a product that has equal or more value compared to others along with good customer service, IMO they won't be able to compete and will eventually go out of business.

That means me, with product A, might be left with software or hardware that can't be upgraded nor supported. What will we do if the hardware fails (the cable which is locked to the PCM) if the business no longer exists with no place to get it replaced or fixed.

As for me, as soon as EFILive adds the tuner to their scanner, I will be upgrading my current version of EFILive Pro to include the tuner. HP could also be an option, but I might as well stick with EFILive since I already have the scanner software.

This means I will have two software tuner packages and another cash outlay to upgrade to the tuner version of EFILive, but EFILive will be far superior with features and functionality than what I have now (my existinging tuner software). I guess it will just gather dust (like 5.25 floppy disks) since it can't be used by anyone else since its locked to one car, 'mine', which I intend to keep for a long time.

The bottom line: purchase from the business that has the most product value, functionality, service, and chance of success in the marketplace.

ataylors

iTrader: (2)

One other thing that is great for me is that I have a Pontiac Grand Prix and HP Tuners will be able to be used for that also. That what I dont have to have and learn two differant things

samz28

ls1edit's next logical move would be to include a scanner, and no year/vin lock for the same price. He's a rich man already.

Hptuners is vulnerable financial wise, this would throw hptuners to the death bed. Because it has probably not overcome its investment $$ and would crush the company.

If ls1edit/someone else cant do this, then hptuners will dominate for a while.. ls1edit will die off.

Of course ls1edit is probably too stingy to realize this.

Of course Anyone with a 29F800 eprom reader (socketed) can write their own software by plugging numbers and watching the changes.

We could simply do this with hptuners/ls1edit and reverse engineer the code, it might be perplex'ing to do and then make it all public knowlege, in which case all products would go open source and the whole market would crash.

I'm telling you the future, which path you choose to accept is up to you.

Indeed i can make a totally free programming tool and low cost cable, too, but i have other profitable ventures to do, and i respect other entrepreneurs making their money, but don't be blindsided by the truth.

It's not hard at all to reverse engineer anything, regardless of the cool anti debugging code you might think you have

We all know ls1edit/hptuners were not created without reverse engineering other products or using trade secrets, It's not likely either company could ever sue anyone due to the nature of the software.

Also the fact that the software eliminates emissions/is illegal to use on street, but is being used as so, would set a precedent case in federal court if someone (in the greenery up in congress) ever decided that hacking (any) ecu software is a DMCA/Federal emissions tampering,etc. **** would have to go underground.

Yes i'm a tuner, not for fbodies, so i understand the evolutionary process from "ls1edit" to "freeware edit" and the time it takes for this to happen maybe 3 months, 3 years, or never.

I'd bet my money between 3 months and 3 years before its all out in the open somewhere. free.

horist

one thing to keep in mind though w/HP Tuners... they're not just in the LS1 world. They're making a big impression in the Grand Prix community as well... They have the capabilities to modify most ODBII GM cars ...

ataylors

iTrader: (2)

One other iron in the fire is suppose to be DHP INC. Which is suppose to be better and cheaper. They are also already offering a free vin changer utility.

samz28

efilive pro can change vin #'s? Whats the big deal about that? The vin locks on ls1edit utilize a far more sophisticated system than vin # lol.

I dont reverse engineer other peoples' work (as i said im a tuner) but do take a quick look at the software since i'm also a code warrior .

anyways cheating is cheating, if you want to make a product thats unlimited go for it, if you want to cheat ls1edit or hptuners, or whatever else, thats just plain wrong... They put the $$ into designing the product, respect that.

esp hptuners, since they give us no vin lock and a scanner for a great price..

slow

iTrader: (7)

there are a few irons in the fire so to speak, so service, and flexibility will be the deciding factor, right now, im going to be buying the HPtuners, when it becomes available for the 98 platforms.

I will also at least mess with, and most likely own a copy of the one in the future, as i know the support is there and the knowledge to do mail order base tunes to give people a starting point.

Ryan

samz28

Yeah and don't forget to SUPPORT THE SPONSOR's. They pay for our free forum.

I don't see ls1edit supporting anyone, maybe they support ls1.com or the ghey forums.

lol

slow

iTrader: (7)

ls1edit does not support anything that i know of, they had a monopoly, and used it for their advantage

Ryan.

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

Most people, even those who program other things
for a living, are not going to want to diddle one bit
or one block of bytes at a time, and nobody except
a real nut wants to break seal on the PCM, desolder
the EEPROM, socket it (with those fine-pitch lands,
surface mount, what fun) and then pop the lid every
time you go program. That's not even worth the price
of free. Making it all sensible to the serious-hobbyist
type of user, at a minimum, is what it takes to sell
any volume of software. HPTuners' interface is nice
and straight, Excel cut-n-paste is something I have
found very useful in my tuning activity so far. We
pay for the PCM access to be made understandable
and no-surprises. I can say I got my money's worth
and then some. Can't say I see any similar deal out
there, nothing but smoke signals on the horizon. Or
is that really a light puffy cloud? We'll see if we get
some more rain.

horist

they don't even sponsor those sites! ... as mentioned ls1edit had a monopoly and took advantage of it... they never offered a GP, they weren't involved in the community...

When I killed my PCM cause I lost connection during a burn... carputings response... send it back to us w/50 bux and we can probably recover...

I went to a dealership and had them reflash for about the same cost... HP Tuners has PCM Recovery BUILT IN ...

Hell... they raised their prices after a while... support agreements are more expensive now then when I bought my cable 2.5 years ago...

As far as i'm concerned carputing

samz28

you can have your ecu socketed for like $20-30

i've got a stock 29f400's and 29f800's oddly laying around.

there's more to being a code warier than just mapping. Mappers are the lessor of the food chain. Those who can make changes to the code and make it do their bidding are the true code warriors.

For example. Taking an input , say the A/C Pressure input , adding a 3bar map sensor, then Adjusting (open loop on, fueling, timing) on boost using a matrix (speed density) on top of the existing system, would be a code-warrior. A true hacker.

Anyone can cut and paste #'s. Mind you its not easy to know the effects of what you are doing, but there's a cut n dry mark between a programmer and mapper.

Generally speaking programmers don't like to map, and the mappers dont like to code.

Anyways hptuners rools for the moment. They are a sponsor, you know what to do..

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

I'm a lover, not a fighter...

Fetumpsh

You maybe be interested in this link -
http://www.efilive.com/news_20040423.html
Ah, proabably, not, you have already made your purchase.

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

Been watching EFILive (like watching paint dry, pretty much)
and if it turned out to be much superior I might go for it
anyway (being as I already have EFILiveV6). But, the bar
is raised. And they're being very tight-lipped about every
aspect of it (from license to param coverage) so there's
very little basis to wait on (and so I didn't).

Bink

jb - how can you say that?? The update frequency for EFILIVE 6 has been phenomenal...and they're free!! You've been on their board...you know they're working on V6 updates, FlashScan and their "EFILive EDITOR".
Why would they not be tight lipped?? They're smart businessmen - don't tell the competition a thing about their products or their plans.
My 0.02.
joel

EFILive

iTrader: (2)

I can say in all honesty, I completely sympathise with your point of view. It is impossible for those who need to purchase a tuner product sooner rather than later, to make any informed decision about EFILive's future products. As you point out we have been very tight lipped - deliberately.

I would love to be able to tell everyone what we have planned and when we think it will be available. But that causes two problems:

1. We are realistic enough to know that we will not hit any deadline that we set, unless we set it far into the future. So there is no point in publicly setting expectations only to have to tear them down. We will announce a date only when we know we can hit it.

2. It seems that some of our scan tool innovations have been appropriated by others as their own. We have a number of "cool" features up our sleeve and we are not prepared to announce those features until the product is ready.

We understand these types of decisions may cost us sales in the short term. But we are working as fast as is humanly possible to get this tool to market. And get it to market in good shape. There's no time for the paint to dry on this side of the wall

Regards
Paul