Anyone Seen/Heard Of A Balancer Timing Marks Being Off? Big Mystery!!
12-19-2013, 10:18 AM
#1
Anyone Seen/Heard Of A Balancer Timing Marks Being Off? Big Mystery!! Has anyone ever see or heard of an aftermarket balancer timing marks being off and I mean way off. In my case I am dealing with a Powerbond 25% UD.
Engine is a turbo'd 6.0L with a 24x reluctor. Had to replace the crank and after reassembly, I fixed the timing at 20* in MS3 to verify it with a timing light and saw 28*. I retarded the timing 8* in MS3 to get it back to where it should be. Ran the car at the track and the engine was soft and struggling and a buddy at the finish line said it sounded like it was fighting itself. Best ET is in my sig and I was looking to improve on that with a few minor mods and another psi of boost. Expected to trap 158+ but it trapped 143! Estimate hp was down about 180!
Since then, I had FTI check the tranny and PTC the converter and they are fine. I redegreed the cam and it was spot on. Leakdown showed all 8 cyls within 2%. Where did the power go? Found the reluctor is off slightly, retarded towards the drivers side. How much is a guess, but let's say it's 8*. So, if the reluctor is retarded 8* and the balancer is showing 8* advanced, could the balancer timing marks be off 16*? To compound the matter, I retarded the timing 8*, so was I running 16* retarded at the track? Seems a logical explanation for the power loss since everything else is fine.
I know I am reaching but I need to verify this theory. I don't have another marked balancer to compare but I have a thought on how to check it. If I put #1 at TDC, I could line up the balancer keyway slot with the keyway for the oil pump crank sprocket and see how the timing marks line up with my timing tab. Is that a reasonable check?
Desperate for a solution. Feedback will be appreciated.
Engine is a turbo'd 6.0L with a 24x reluctor. Had to replace the crank and after reassembly, I fixed the timing at 20* in MS3 to verify it with a timing light and saw 28*. I retarded the timing 8* in MS3 to get it back to where it should be. Ran the car at the track and the engine was soft and struggling and a buddy at the finish line said it sounded like it was fighting itself. Best ET is in my sig and I was looking to improve on that with a few minor mods and another psi of boost. Expected to trap 158+ but it trapped 143! Estimate hp was down about 180!
Since then, I had FTI check the tranny and PTC the converter and they are fine. I redegreed the cam and it was spot on. Leakdown showed all 8 cyls within 2%. Where did the power go? Found the reluctor is off slightly, retarded towards the drivers side. How much is a guess, but let's say it's 8*. So, if the reluctor is retarded 8* and the balancer is showing 8* advanced, could the balancer timing marks be off 16*? To compound the matter, I retarded the timing 8*, so was I running 16* retarded at the track? Seems a logical explanation for the power loss since everything else is fine.
I know I am reaching but I need to verify this theory. I don't have another marked balancer to compare but I have a thought on how to check it. If I put #1 at TDC, I could line up the balancer keyway slot with the keyway for the oil pump crank sprocket and see how the timing marks line up with my timing tab. Is that a reasonable check?
Desperate for a solution. Feedback will be appreciated.
12-20-2013, 01:02 AM
#2
What are you using for a pointer? Did you verify that the pointer is at zero at tdc? That should've answered your question. I don't see how you can put a pointer on this thing without determining where tdc is. Also, these things don't use a keyway to index the balancer, so you could put the balancer on anywhere. It would be impossible for the timing marks to be off on a balancer if there is no keyway to index it on the crank.
12-20-2013, 06:58 AM
#4
Even with a regular SBC, GM has four different timing pointer locations they used due to different accessory configurations. If the dampener and timing cover/tab don't match it can be further off than that.
A basic part of engine building is verifying the timing mark at TDC, before the cylinder head for #1 cylinder is installed. You can not just stick that stuff together!
Well, I guess you can, but....
LOL
A basic part of engine building is verifying the timing mark at TDC, before the cylinder head for #1 cylinder is installed. You can not just stick that stuff together!
Well, I guess you can, but....
LOL
12-20-2013, 03:22 PM
#5
There is no keyway. Couple of months ago I damaged a head due to an injector failure and while the heads were off, I decided to do a cam change and add the balancer. Cam was degreed in with a dial indicator on #1 piston and while #1 was at true TDC, I fabbed up a pointer on the front cover in a location that made it easy to read through the turbo plumbing, etc. The balancer was then installed with the TDC mark lined up with pointer. So, things were not just stuck together 
Car ran close to the numbers in the sig but had some main clearance and thrust issues and I had to replace the crank. Once again, the cam was degreed and balancer installed as before and that is when the problem started.
The reluctor is badly misaligned, something missed during the build and assembly. It is retarded counterclockwise and I believe it is reading the trailing edge of the previous tooth rather than the leading edge of the correct tooth. It is looking like the crank will have to come out to fix it or run it wasted spark with an external trigger wheel. I really don't want to pull this thing apart again, 3rd time in a couple of months, so I have a decision to make.
Car ran close to the numbers in the sig but had some main clearance and thrust issues and I had to replace the crank. Once again, the cam was degreed and balancer installed as before and that is when the problem started.The reluctor is badly misaligned, something missed during the build and assembly. It is retarded counterclockwise and I believe it is reading the trailing edge of the previous tooth rather than the leading edge of the correct tooth. It is looking like the crank will have to come out to fix it or run it wasted spark with an external trigger wheel. I really don't want to pull this thing apart again, 3rd time in a couple of months, so I have a decision to make.
12-20-2013, 07:03 PM
#7
TECH Apprentice
Once you "sync" up that aftermarket balancer with the #1 cylinder, you will have to "pin" it there with a kit like the blower guys use.
Or the next time you try to time it, you have to verify the balancer had not moved from your original "synced" spot. It can not be trusted again to be correctly aligned with TDC, if you had not done something to make sure it can't move during heavy use, it probably did....
We have a pro-bond SFI balancer on the Camaro we just did, but we pinned it in two places.(a little overkill with two pins, but that is what we did)
No timing issues here. Also we are using the 24x reluctor, and a MS3pro.
I have pics of the balancer and pointer,around somewhere, I will put up when I find them.
Or the next time you try to time it, you have to verify the balancer had not moved from your original "synced" spot. It can not be trusted again to be correctly aligned with TDC, if you had not done something to make sure it can't move during heavy use, it probably did....
We have a pro-bond SFI balancer on the Camaro we just did, but we pinned it in two places.(a little overkill with two pins, but that is what we did)
No timing issues here. Also we are using the 24x reluctor, and a MS3pro.
I have pics of the balancer and pointer,around somewhere, I will put up when I find them.
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12-21-2013, 09:34 AM
#8
Do you mean 24x VS 58x. Block is an '03 LQ4 and replacement crank is from an '03 LQ4.
Atomic 6, I am interested in seeing how you did it, but I question if pinning is necessary on a non-supercharged engine with just an alternator. My Powerbond has such a tight interference fit, I have already ruined 4 pullers taking it off Never had this issue before and when I recently encountered it, I had just finished assembly with the replacement crank, fired it up, let it idle to check for leaks, then checked the timing.
Atomic 6, I am interested in seeing how you did it, but I question if pinning is necessary on a non-supercharged engine with just an alternator. My Powerbond has such a tight interference fit, I have already ruined 4 pullers taking it off
Never had this issue before and when I recently encountered it, I had just finished assembly with the replacement crank, fired it up, let it idle to check for leaks, then checked the timing. 
