Hints to address hesitation?
08-25-2015, 02:39 PM
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Hints to address hesitation? I have this weird sort of hesitation going on. Not awful, but noticeable. Here's a quick description. I make a right turn from a dead stop and put it in second at 15mph. It's almost slow to pull at first. Hits about 3000rpm and the tires will break loose, and by this time the car is pointing straight. Now, obviously, I don't want to lose power above 3K, I just want to see if I can flatten the curve by bringing up the bottom end a bit.
I've played with the end of injection timing, and went from 5.55 to 5.95 to 6.55, and ended up at 6.26, which has given the best results by far for low end torque based on the butt dyno.
I found PE set at 64% until 3000 rpm, when it begins to drop until it reaches 26% at 4000. I extended 26% down to 3000, which put 64% down around 2400 (can't remember the exact number). This helped quite a bit.
STFT's are all very close to zero, so I'm pretty sure the VE's and MAF are correct.
I have added timing in the low load, off idle range, but have not touched the higher load off idle rpm timing, because I keep reading conflicting versions of cams liking more or less timing off idle.
The cam is 227/236 112+3, heads are Mamo 220, fast 102, 102TB, Lingenfelter MAF screened.
I've searched a bunch, which is where I got the ideas already tried above. Anyone corrected this before, or is this a permanent feature of the cam's behavior, so learn to love it?
Edit: I should mention - no nitrous, though it feels that way sometimes
I've played with the end of injection timing, and went from 5.55 to 5.95 to 6.55, and ended up at 6.26, which has given the best results by far for low end torque based on the butt dyno.
I found PE set at 64% until 3000 rpm, when it begins to drop until it reaches 26% at 4000. I extended 26% down to 3000, which put 64% down around 2400 (can't remember the exact number). This helped quite a bit.
STFT's are all very close to zero, so I'm pretty sure the VE's and MAF are correct.
I have added timing in the low load, off idle range, but have not touched the higher load off idle rpm timing, because I keep reading conflicting versions of cams liking more or less timing off idle.
The cam is 227/236 112+3, heads are Mamo 220, fast 102, 102TB, Lingenfelter MAF screened.
I've searched a bunch, which is where I got the ideas already tried above. Anyone corrected this before, or is this a permanent feature of the cam's behavior, so learn to love it?
Edit: I should mention - no nitrous, though it feels that way sometimes
08-25-2015, 03:16 PM
#2
I had a tip in hesitation. Timing fixed it. Needed a little more to eat up the extra fuel when you get on the throttle.
And hesitation is mechanical or tune. You may have reduced power on the low end from a big cam but should never have a hesitation.
Give this a try. It's the timing I used on my 228R/PRC 5.3's/FAST 102 & LT's Won't be perfect but interested to see if it helps.
How's your on off idle transitions back to idle?
And hesitation is mechanical or tune. You may have reduced power on the low end from a big cam but should never have a hesitation.
Code:
34.0 30.0 23.0 21.9 21.2 21.5 22.9 27.4 32.7 37.6 40.7 41.4 41.8 41.8 41.7 41.5 41.2 40.9 40.7 40.7 40.7 40.7 40.7 40.7 40.7 34.0 30.0 23.1 22.0 21.0 21.5 22.5 26.9 32.2 37.2 40.5 41.2 41.6 41.7 41.6 41.3 41.0 40.8 40.6 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 34.0 30.0 23.4 22.2 21.0 21.5 22.0 26.4 31.8 36.7 39.7 40.9 41.3 41.4 41.3 41.1 40.7 40.5 40.3 40.1 40.1 40.1 40.1 40.1 40.1 34.0 30.0 23.7 22.5 21.0 21.2 21.5 25.8 31.3 35.8 38.6 40.4 40.8 40.9 40.8 40.5 40.2 40.0 39.8 39.3 39.3 39.3 39.3 39.3 39.3 34.0 30.0 23.7 22.5 21.0 21.1 21.5 25.3 30.5 34.5 37.5 38.9 39.3 39.4 39.2 38.9 38.5 38.2 37.9 37.9 37.9 38.0 38.0 38.0 38.0 34.0 30.0 23.2 22.5 21.0 21.1 21.5 25.1 29.8 32.8 35.7 36.4 36.7 36.7 36.5 36.2 35.8 35.5 35.4 35.4 35.5 35.5 35.5 35.5 35.5 34.0 30.0 22.3 21.9 21.0 21.0 21.5 24.7 28.9 31.9 34.0 34.7 34.9 34.9 34.6 34.3 34.1 34.1 34.4 34.5 34.5 34.5 34.5 34.5 34.5 34.0 30.0 21.4 21.5 21.1 21.2 22.2 24.6 28.4 30.8 32.5 33.6 33.8 33.6 33.3 33.1 33.0 33.3 34.2 34.2 34.2 34.2 34.2 34.2 34.2 34.0 30.0 18.5 19.2 20.1 21.2 22.4 24.6 28.1 30.3 30.9 32.2 32.6 32.8 32.5 32.2 32.2 32.7 33.7 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 30.0 16.9 17.9 19.2 20.7 21.6 23.0 27.4 29.5 30.5 31.5 32.0 32.0 31.8 31.4 31.3 31.7 32.8 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.4 18.2 19.3 20.0 21.5 26.1 28.0 28.9 29.8 30.2 29.9 29.8 29.8 29.7 30.0 30.8 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 16.7 18.0 19.3 21.2 24.3 26.5 27.3 28.2 28.5 27.9 27.9 28.2 28.1 28.3 28.8 28.9 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 16.7 17.0 18.4 20.4 22.6 24.9 25.7 26.2 26.4 26.2 26.3 26.5 27.1 27.4 27.2 27.3 27.9 27.9 27.9 27.9 27.9 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 18.0 20.0 22.1 24.4 24.9 24.8 24.8 24.9 25.0 26.0 26.5 26.9 27.1 27.3 27.8 27.8 27.8 27.8 27.8 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.4 24.4 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.2 24.3 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.2 24.3 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.2 24.3 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.2 24.3 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.8 24.2 24.5 24.3 24.3 24.2 24.3 25.1 26.1 26.4 26.7 26.7 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 27.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.4 19.4 21.6 24.0 24.3 24.1 24.1 24.0 23.9 24.9 25.9 26.2 26.5 26.5 27.3 27.3 27.3 27.3 27.3 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.3 19.2 21.4 23.8 24.1 23.8 23.9 23.7 23.8 24.6 25.6 26.0 26.3 26.3 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.2 19.1 21.2 23.6 23.9 23.6 23.6 23.5 23.7 24.4 25.4 25.8 26.0 26.0 26.8 26.8 26.8 26.8 26.8 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.1 19.0 21.0 23.3 23.6 23.4 23.4 23.3 23.6 24.2 25.2 25.5 25.8 25.8 26.5 26.5 26.5 26.5 26.5 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.8 20.9 23.1 23.4 23.2 23.2 23.1 23.5 24.0 25.0 25.3 25.6 25.6 26.3 26.3 26.3 26.3 26.3 34.0 30.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.8 20.8 22.9 23.2 22.9 23.0 22.8 23.4 23.7 24.7 25.1 25.4 25.4 26.1 26.1 26.1 26.1 26.1 34.0 16.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.6 20.6 22.7 23.0 22.7 22.7 22.6 23.3 23.5 24.5 24.9 25.2 25.2 25.9 25.9 25.9 25.9 25.9 34.0 16.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.4 20.3 22.4 22.7 22.5 22.5 22.4 23.2 23.3 24.3 24.6 24.9 24.9 25.7 25.7 25.7 25.7 25.7 16.0 16.0 16.0 16.0 17.0 17.0 17.0 18.3 20.2 22.2 22.5 22.3 22.3 22.2 23.1 23.1 24.1 24.4 24.7 24.7 25.5 25.5 25.5 25.5 25.5
How's your on off idle transitions back to idle?
08-25-2015, 03:47 PM
#3
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Thanks for that, Exidous. I can see some very stark differences in that table vs mine. I'll upload it later today when I get back home.
Transitions back to idle are totally solid. I get minor stumble - if I go from WOT to coasting with the clutch in. Other than that, very solid idle behavior. I had previously disabled the cracker, but I've re-enabled it with much lower values and the multiplier at 1 vs what it was before, and the "hanging" idle is around 1000-1100, idle speed is 900. So, overall, good behavior there.
Transitions back to idle are totally solid. I get minor stumble - if I go from WOT to coasting with the clutch in. Other than that, very solid idle behavior. I had previously disabled the cracker, but I've re-enabled it with much lower values and the multiplier at 1 vs what it was before, and the "hanging" idle is around 1000-1100, idle speed is 900. So, overall, good behavior there.
08-25-2015, 07:41 PM
#4
Here's mine with my bigass cam. I did a lot of RTT to get drivability awesome with the cam.
Code:
32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 37.0 37.0 39.0 40.2 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 37.0 37.0 39.0 40.2 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 37.0 37.0 39.0 40.2 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 40.5 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 36.0 36.0 38.0 38.5 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 39.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 35.0 35.0 36.0 36.6 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 37.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 34.2 34.2 34.5 36.2 36.7 36.7 36.7 36.6 36.5 36.4 36.4 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 32.0 32.0 32.0 32.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 35.0 35.9 36.4 36.4 36.4 36.3 36.0 35.8 35.7 35.6 35.6 35.5 35.5 35.5 35.5 35.5 35.5 32.0 32.0 23.4 25.6 27.7 33.0 34.0 34.0 35.0 35.6 36.1 36.2 36.1 35.9 35.5 35.2 35.1 34.9 34.8 34.7 34.7 34.7 34.7 34.7 34.7 32.0 32.0 21.3 23.5 25.8 33.0 34.0 34.0 35.0 35.2 35.8 35.9 35.8 35.5 35.0 34.6 34.4 34.2 34.1 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 32.0 32.0 19.6 21.9 24.2 33.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.1 34.8 35.0 35.0 34.7 34.1 33.7 34.4 34.3 34.1 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 32.0 32.0 18.2 20.3 22.6 32.4 32.4 32.4 32.0 32.9 33.7 34.0 34.0 33.8 33.3 32.9 32.5 33.3 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 34.0 32.0 32.0 16.4 18.7 21.0 23.2 25.6 27.9 29.9 31.4 32.4 32.9 33.0 32.8 32.3 31.5 30.9 31.0 32.3 32.2 32.2 32.2 32.2 32.2 32.2 32.0 32.0 14.9 17.3 19.7 21.9 24.2 26.5 28.6 30.2 31.2 31.8 31.9 31.6 31.0 30.3 29.6 30.2 31.1 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 31.0 32.0 32.0 13.5 15.9 18.2 20.6 23.0 25.3 27.4 29.0 30.0 30.5 30.6 30.4 29.6 28.9 28.5 29.2 30.1 30.0 30.0 30.0 30.0 30.0 30.0 32.0 32.0 12.0 14.5 16.8 19.0 21.5 23.9 26.1 27.7 28.7 29.3 29.3 28.9 28.3 27.6 27.1 28.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 29.0 32.0 32.0 10.9 13.1 15.4 17.7 20.4 22.7 24.8 26.4 27.5 28.1 28.2 27.6 26.8 26.2 26.0 27.0 28.0 28.0 28.0 28.0 28.0 28.0 28.0 32.0 32.0 9.6 12.2 14.4 16.6 19.1 21.5 23.5 25.3 26.4 27.1 27.2 26.6 25.8 25.2 25.0 26.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 27.0 32.0 32.0 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 32.0 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 32.0 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 4.3 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 4.3 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 4.3 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 4.3 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 4.3 6.4 8.7 11.2 13.4 15.6 18.1 20.4 22.5 24.2 25.4 26.0 26.1 25.6 24.8 24.2 24.0 25.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0 26.0
08-25-2015, 10:28 PM
#5
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Not sure how you guys got your tables to insert like that. Both have opposite approaches. Jake yours adds a lot of timing. Exodus, yours cuts a lot of timing.
The big difference I see is in both your tunes your timing is highest in the 5k-6k range. Mine is highest right near 3k. I don't understand why the tuner would do that. I manually added timing up top to gain more rpm.
I'm going to try exidous' table tomorrow and then jakes on Thursday just to see which way to move the timing.
The big difference I see is in both your tunes your timing is highest in the 5k-6k range. Mine is highest right near 3k. I don't understand why the tuner would do that. I manually added timing up top to gain more rpm.
I'm going to try exidous' table tomorrow and then jakes on Thursday just to see which way to move the timing.
08-25-2015, 10:31 PM
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Those add and cut comments refer to off idle, low to moderate loads.
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08-26-2015, 12:53 AM
#8
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PM didn't come through. I figured it would be pretty safe, given that our setups are pretty similar overall. Since you warned me off I'll rethink it. thanks for that.
08-26-2015, 02:09 AM
#9
It's only dangerous with large swings and near peak tq. As long as you don't go over what you had before at peak tq you should be okay.
There are a couple areas where I had a little knock early on. In Hawaii going up H2 low RPM high load I'd get a little knock. pulled 2*. Went away.
I'll get you my follower and cracker settings later. May help you with that minor stumble.
There are a couple areas where I had a little knock early on. In Hawaii going up H2 low RPM high load I'd get a little knock. pulled 2*. Went away.
I'll get you my follower and cracker settings later. May help you with that minor stumble.
08-26-2015, 12:29 PM
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Here's what I did - I compared back and forth between the three setups and realized all my peak timing was in the 2200-3000 rpm range. I pulled the 27's down to 25's and then smoothed out the rest. At the 6K range, I was at 22, so I moved that up to 24. Left a valley at 4800-5200 at 22 degrees and smoothed it out.
Then, down low, I ended up mostly adding at low load and smoothing at high load.
I also noticed that both of you had the entire 400 column at 34 degrees, so I mimicked that. That change killed the last of the stumble. Much smoother pull from 1500 to 4000 compared to yesterday.
Then, down low, I ended up mostly adding at low load and smoothing at high load.
I also noticed that both of you had the entire 400 column at 34 degrees, so I mimicked that. That change killed the last of the stumble. Much smoother pull from 1500 to 4000 compared to yesterday.
08-26-2015, 01:32 PM
#11
The really high timing at 400 and 600 are a bandaid catch just in case the engine dips so it can try to catch. It should never get low enough to have to touch those cells. The follower should be taking care of that.
Around and above .88g/cyl was my peak tq at 26/27* of timing. When you are at WOT I'd slowly step up the timing 1* at a time from where ever you have PE enabled to redline. Keep going until you see a hint of knock then take off 2* for safety. At peak tq is where the car will be most sensitive to timing and knock.
Around and above .88g/cyl was my peak tq at 26/27* of timing. When you are at WOT I'd slowly step up the timing 1* at a time from where ever you have PE enabled to redline. Keep going until you see a hint of knock then take off 2* for safety. At peak tq is where the car will be most sensitive to timing and knock.
Last edited by Exidous; 08-26-2015 at 01:55 PM.
08-26-2015, 02:37 PM
#12
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The really high timing at 400 and 600 are a bandaid catch just in case the engine dips so it can try to catch. It should never get low enough to have to touch those cells. The follower should be taking care of that.
Around and above .88g/cyl was my peak tq at 26/27* of timing. When you are at WOT I'd slowly step up the timing 1* at a time from where ever you have PE enabled to redline. Keep going until you see a hint of knock then take off 2* for safety. At peak tq is where the car will be most sensitive to timing and knock.
Around and above .88g/cyl was my peak tq at 26/27* of timing. When you are at WOT I'd slowly step up the timing 1* at a time from where ever you have PE enabled to redline. Keep going until you see a hint of knock then take off 2* for safety. At peak tq is where the car will be most sensitive to timing and knock.
I honestly didn't realize how fun tuning can be, it's just a lot to absorb. In the end, though, it is one large database of values that you have to sift through.
Also, I don't know if this makes sense, but I was sort of trying to use spark to help the idle stumble, because I was reading other threads where Jake made the comment a few times that spark timing can adjust faster than the follower can. So, I felt that with the right spark, I could compensate some for the follower, and then make a fine-tune adjustment to the follower. to settle it out.
Very much appreciate you more knowledgeable guys sharing what you know
08-26-2015, 03:37 PM
#13
Unless you are running a REALLY light flywheel the follower should be plenty to catch the RPM's. The follower is really sensitive on the low side. I'll edit this in a little bit with my follower settings. Laptop is next to my bed downstairs.
Many use the spark to get the idle to sound how they want. When you blip the throttle does the engine hesitate at all when coming off idle?
Figured just easier to give the tune.
SBE
PRC 5.3L
.051" HG
TSP 228r 114LSA
FAST 102 unported
FAST 102 TB
1 3/4" LT's
3" y to 3.5" single to 3" single CB
no cats
LS3 injectors
Monster LT1S w/ light fw
4.10 rear
stock accesories
Many use the spark to get the idle to sound how they want. When you blip the throttle does the engine hesitate at all when coming off idle?
Figured just easier to give the tune.
SBE
PRC 5.3L
.051" HG
TSP 228r 114LSA
FAST 102 unported
FAST 102 TB
1 3/4" LT's
3" y to 3.5" single to 3" single CB
no cats
LS3 injectors
Monster LT1S w/ light fw
4.10 rear
stock accesories
Last edited by Exidous; 08-26-2015 at 04:18 PM.
08-26-2015, 07:41 PM
#14
I had my timing really low in the 1200-1400-1600 cells at low loads because that's what big cams like according to tuners or whatever. Well that didn't work. My car loaded up to open the TB blade. And the thought is, that if you load up, RPMs will climb to a better/more efficient RPM. Well, I had horrifying drone and surge/bucking.
I went from 22 degrees to 34 degrees. Car drives very smooth and has a lot more power around 1500rpm.
I also added a ton of airflow to the TC/TF tables. That helped.
As far as the rest of the timing... more before peak torque, step down at peak torque 2-3 degrees, and then peak HP has higher timing. I topped mine at 26 because I have LS6 heads (which need less timing than LS1 heads) and it doesn't knock on the street.
I went from 22 degrees to 34 degrees. Car drives very smooth and has a lot more power around 1500rpm.
I also added a ton of airflow to the TC/TF tables. That helped.
As far as the rest of the timing... more before peak torque, step down at peak torque 2-3 degrees, and then peak HP has higher timing. I topped mine at 26 because I have LS6 heads (which need less timing than LS1 heads) and it doesn't knock on the street.
08-27-2015, 05:03 PM
#15
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Quick TLA question then. RTT = real time tracking?
shows ignition timing has significant control of engine speed.