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All right - Feast your eyes on this log - Widebands installed, Knock Retard now shows numbers. 02's numbers are still pulsating 438 to 453... AFR numbers on the Innovate Box 11.5 to 13.7 AEM WB AFR meter pulsating 12.1, 13.7 to 14.2 Idle's high 2k and when coming up to a stop 2k and then will go down after 30 seconds.. My mileage right now 4.9 mph......
All the channels are there now, but the Innovate is just showing a flat 10.3 AFR. Now, it may be that the car is so daggum rich, it's just pegged at "low". I don't like your VE table, but there is no way to know how to fix it without the feedback unless one takes a WAG at it, which I'm willing to do. I'm not honestly sure how close this next write will be, but I think it will be better than what you have now. You're basically commanding the same fuel (or close enough to not make much difference) at a given RPM regardless of throttle position or MAP. This next one may get overly lean, may even struggle to idle at first, but the computer has learned how to keep itself idling while eyes bleeding rich. So, if it runs rough or struggles, give it some time to stabilize.
To give you an example, larger cams are extremely inefficient at lower RPM. Your cam is larger than mine and you're commanding twice the fuel I am at idle. I do not by any means think the VE table I'm proposing will be right, but I think it will be closer to what your engine is actually doing for a starting point.
All right - Feast your eyes on this log - Widebands installed, Knock Retard now shows numbers. 02's numbers are still pulsating 438 to 453... AFR numbers on the Innovate Box 11.5 to 13.7 AEM WB AFR meter pulsating 12.1, 13.7 to 14.2 Idle's high 2k and when coming up to a stop 2k and then will go down after 30 seconds.. My mileage right now 4.9 mph......
I think darth is on to something there... Your VE is probably so rich you are hitting the lower end of the WB's range, most likely. I actually had to adjust the range on my chart to see the line, so you were literally "off the charts" rich... lol. It is now moving, some, so there's hope there. Does the gauge match the scanner? If it's really 10:1, the VE table is going to need to be reduced by a good amount. Darth I think has you covered on that one since he can save your tune. Hopefully that brings it up to where it should oscillate.
Here's what my O2's and WB look like at idle. WB is pretty close in this pic. Was tuning idle with new cam.
Do you have the O2's hooked up to the front plugs? They need to be hooked up as B1S1 and B2S1. The back positions are to monitor the cats. We don't need no stupid cats, so I'd look at that. I would also confirm your grounds on the WB output too. A bad ground will cause all kinds of issues. It should be hooked to pin 5, the ground that is. The top 4 pins are the inputs on the MPVI 1 green connector. From your log it appears you are using position 1.
Did anyone ever mess with the pins on your PCM? Particularly for the O2's? I removed those harnesses from mine completely long ago, the rears O2's that is. I think you have them either hooked into the wrong locations or the pins are in the wrong places for some reason. It's an 0411 according to your log, so pinout is easy to come by.
^^^ Wrote it and here is the new Log,,, still need time for the computer to re-learn the car.... Idle is 10x better... Innovate LM1 box showed high lean 20.1 staying above 15 and pulsating, made a quick lap in my neighborhood, then saw 14.5 to 16, 17 pulsating The 02 situation is still a very strange and difficult thing to figure out.... Currently, there is nothing plugged into the 0EM 02 plugs, front or rear and the 02 sims have been removed. LMR installed new "wired in" Wideband 02 sensors, left and right, AEM Wideband Meter so I'm guessing they used the LM1 box with the meter to tune (10 years ago).. I have no idea where the 02 readings are coming from at this point... When I changed PCM's I accidentally pulled apart 1 wire with a male connector where I am still looking for the other end for my pillar meters (N0S, Fuel Pressure and MSD Shift Light/RPM meter)..... If anyone knows about Lingenfelter 2-Steps - could this be wired into and with the pillar meters? Going to try a jump wire and see...
This is my first weekend off in a long while... attempting to take advantage of it....
Ok, could be on to something now, I hope..... I hooked up the NB 02's and then loaded 02 B1 S2 SAE and 02 B2 S2 SAE and now get what look to be actual readings and data... This is just at idle in my garage....
Ok, idles great, runs a little rough, but hey got 02 readings.... Look at channels list on left and will see 02 B1 S2 and 02 B2 S2 (SAE) with readings... yea! I still do not know what in the world is up with my Innovate and WB's... with WB's unplugged, I still get the same 02 readings pulsating 450 to 453..... I know it's something on my end..... until then, will the data on the left with the NB's be sufficient to get the tuning dialed in?
Don't worry about the O2's. They are hooked up in the wrong location anyway... FIX that WB. I would already have it torn out and reinstalled by now. It's clearly a wiring issue or disconnect somewhere with it. The wires should go from the sensor, to the gauge, then the MPVI unit, provided it has an analog output, which it should. If there is some wizbang special box between, then I would remove that too. That should be your priority. There is almost no way to tell what the AFR is doing, but I can tell you that knock is not healthy at all. You might be super lean and no one knows, except what you are seeing on the gauge maybe, and at this point I don't trust that either lol. The voltage that the O2's that are reading shows it at zero, which for all we know could be 20:1 AFR or worse.
I mean you could even pick up a new one for under $200. And for the money we spend on these engines, well worth it. I made a standalone one just for this kind of thing.
Do you have the O2's hooked up to the front plugs? They need to be hooked up as B1S1 and B2S1. The back positions are to monitor the cats. We don't need no stupid cats, so I'd look at that.
Originally Posted by Y2kHawk05
Currently, there is nothing plugged into the 0EM 02 plugs, front or rear and the 02 sims have been removed..
Your never going to get an "actual" B1S1 or B2S2 reading without sensors plugged into them...the o2 readings in your logs look just like what I get when I unplug either/or both front sensor when I'm diagnosing a stock driveability problem. I guess what I'm saying is...your o2 readings look "normal" for missing or completely dead sensors.
Also, with your tune as it is, (sounds pig rich) your short term and long term fuel trims should be trying like hell to correct it...they are sitting at 0. This also points toward there being no 02 signal.
EDIT: Chopperdoc beat me to my next suggestion if your not running the stock o2's...figure out that wideband.
Looked at both your logs, and your idle does look pretty decent now. Timing is a bit low vs commanded, so might want to remove 1-2 g/s out of your base idle airflow warmed up. it was around 18, so maybe try 16-ish. Just to rough it in until we get the fueling better. Knock may not be fuel related. You have quite a lot of timing in your low RPM, high load regions. Try this one...
If you want to dial in using your NB, just turn on closed loop and log the fuel trims, which are already in your channels anyway.
Don't worry about the O2's. They are hooked up in the wrong location anyway... FIX that WB. I would already have it torn out and reinstalled by now. It's clearly a wiring issue or disconnect somewhere with it. The wires should go from the sensor, to the gauge, then the MPVI unit, provided it has an analog output, which it should. If there is some wizbang special box between, then I would remove that too. That should be your priority. There is almost no way to tell what the AFR is doing, but I can tell you that knock is not healthy at all. You might be super lean and no one knows, except what you are seeing on the gauge maybe, and at this point I don't trust that either lol. The voltage that the O2's that are reading shows it at zero, which for all we know could be 20:1 AFR or worse.
Exactly what I'm wanting to do (Stay SD and WB 02's) I will go back to them tomorrow Today proved I could get a different 02 reading so the whole time these readings of 450 to 453 are all false. . But still believe progress made... t
I think darth is on to something there... Your VE is probably so rich you are hitting the lower end of the WB's range, most likely. I actually had to adjust the range on my chart to see the line, so you were literally "off the charts" rich... lol. It is now moving, some, so there's hope there. Does the gauge match the scanner? If it's really 10:1, the VE table is going to need to be reduced by a good amount. Darth I think has you covered on that one since he can save your tune. Hopefully that brings it up to where it should oscillate.
Here's what my O2's and WB look like at idle. WB is pretty close in this pic. Was tuning idle with new cam.
Do you have the O2's hooked up to the front plugs? They need to be hooked up as B1S1 and B2S1. The back positions are to monitor the cats. We don't need no stupid cats, so I'd look at that. I would also confirm your grounds on the WB output too. A bad ground will cause all kinds of issues. It should be hooked to pin 5, the ground that is. The top 4 pins are the inputs on the MPVI 1 green connector. From your log it appears you are using position 1.
I have no cats...From following video's I'm using position 1 for the MPV1 Input to get the Innovate LM1 device to log/report. For the ground? Position 5 on the side of the MPV1 Box? I don't have anything for a ground, and did not need it in the past hooked up to the MPV1 box as far as I know... My WB's are directly wired in together with the Innovate 6 pin or S type cord connection coming inside the car on the passenger side. I plug it into the box, plug the power wire into the Aux (Cig lighter), turn the box on, warm/heat up the 02's, obviously have it plugged into the laptop and that's how I go......I would really like to know what LMR did when they installed all of this... Is it all linked together? What parameters based on the way they built it do I need as far as channels? I notice my channel list compared to yours is different. Somehow some way I will get to the bottom of this....
I have no cats...From following video's I'm using position 1 for the MPV1 Input to get the Innovate LM1 device to log/report. For the ground? Position 5 on the side of the MPV1 Box? I don't have anything for a ground, and did not need it in the past hooked up to the MPV1 box as far as I know... My WB's are directly wired in together with the Innovate 6 pin or S type cord connection coming inside the car on the passenger side. I plug it into the box, plug the power wire into the Aux (Cig lighter), turn the box on, warm/heat up the 02's, obviously have it plugged into the laptop and that's how I go......I would really like to know what LMR did when they installed all of this... Is it all linked together? What parameters based on the way they built it do I need as far as channels? I notice my channel list compared to yours is different. Somehow some way I will get to the bottom of this....
Normally only one WB sensor is hooked to the MPVI. The output from the gauges, or where ever that analog input wire is coming from that you have hooked up, needs to be grounded. You can try installing a ground to pin 5, to the gauge ground, but normally the wire is provided on the analog output signal. What I would look for is the gauge ground and hook into that if there isn't one on the output... But there really should be one. It's worth a shot.
My setup has 2 grounds: 1 for the gauge to ground, like normal with almost any gauge, and another from the "out" which on mine (AEM 30-x) is actually 5 wires. One of those is black, and of course is the second ground and that's the one that hooks to the MPVI.
If all else fails, you can just run a ground direct to the frame somewhere right off of pin 5 on the MPVI and see what that does.
Ok am I going F'ing nuts?....... The 02 oscillating (450 to 453) reading is entirely incorrect. Unplugged and that's what it reports in the channels config.... With my NB 02 plugged into the B1S1 position it reads the same as when it's plugged into B1S2 position... At least I know it's not any different between plugs (with no cats) in the 2 positions.. I'm posting a log at just idle.....Not running so good on this tune so far...
Here are 2 more logs.... tried the NB's..... went back and installed the WB's..... On the Innovate LM1 box numbers went out of site at 25.6 AFR and stayed above 20.... which is bad.... bad day for my car...Changed the tune from the Closed loop back to the Open Loop WB tune ... somehow some way I am going to figure out how to get the Fuel numbers to appear... Without fuel, I'm stuck... Ideas? Anyone? Bueller? lol.
Well after messing around with all those wires and setups trying to figure out what was done, I would consider just installing a new WB. The NB's are only an issue if you plan to used closed loop or turn on fuel trims in open loop. Neither of those are required for a SD tune, so my focus would be getting a conventional setup, single sensor, gauge, and a reliable data source for tuning. That's what I would do personally. I've had to change sensors in the past, due to bad readings because sensors do go bad from time to time, especially if you run rich a lot. I know it's not what you want to hear or deal with, but if it were my car, I would consider $200 for a new WB a sound investment over the alternative of damaging or destroying the engine.
04-19-2019, 09:19 PM
