Wow, talk about an IDIOT....
TECH Addict
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,428
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From: Las Vegas, NV
You're right, he doesn't believe in VE tuning, except for idle. I'm really surprised to hear about the bad results, it sounds like JR must have had a bad day. Even when he gets a car tuned well, he's pretty good about following up to make any further tweaks, if necessary.
TECH Addict
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,428
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From: Las Vegas, NV
Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00
i got this guys car from 10 mpg to about 13-14 mpg around town and the tune isnt quite perfect yet either.
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2002
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Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Predator if you really feel like making the comparison without spending any money you can dload the trail version of EFILives software at http://www.efilive.com/downloads/sof...14_456_329.exe then you can go through and compare what is there and what isnt. The descritions alone for each table and its functionality will help you along with any questions you may have about the new things you see in the software. Play around with it for some time and then maybe you can come back and tell us your experience using a newer tuning tool.
When i look at the tuning tools and take edit and compare it to EFILive I see it like this.
I am a carpenter and my boss just asked me to break a 4" concrete slab and hands me a hammer used for nailing nails in decks or wood (Edit). Of course I can still break the slab but how long is it gonna take or how efficient will i be at breaking this slab?
On the other hand my boss asks the same question and instead hands me a sledge hammer to break that slab (EFILive/HPTuners). Which would you prefer to get the job done. I know what I choose
Even if the slab was 2" thick (224 cam) I still would want the sledge hammer to Git er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When i look at the tuning tools and take edit and compare it to EFILive I see it like this.
I am a carpenter and my boss just asked me to break a 4" concrete slab and hands me a hammer used for nailing nails in decks or wood (Edit). Of course I can still break the slab but how long is it gonna take or how efficient will i be at breaking this slab?
On the other hand my boss asks the same question and instead hands me a sledge hammer to break that slab (EFILive/HPTuners). Which would you prefer to get the job done. I know what I choose
Even if the slab was 2" thick (224 cam) I still would want the sledge hammer to Git er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Touche HumpinSS!!
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Originally Posted by Predator
Funny you mention idle, that was one area of tuning that kicked my ***, so I hired TeamZR-1, JR, the subject of this thread, to help me with just idle tuning, and he did a fantastic job. Idle is no longer an issue at all. What was cool was that I was able to email him an EASE scan I had, and he emailed me a new Edit file with the idle corrected.
With a decent sized cam this/above scenario is hit or miss. With a larger cam and narrower LSA ( more reversion) it's nearly impossible.
You NEED the Idle Air Controller (IAC) Long and Short Term Airflow Correction Trims to evaluate Base airflow settings.
0.10 g/sec can make a big difference in long term stabilty and idle quality.
Correct Base airflow has global effects...Timing, AFR and Throttle transitions.
Ease doesn't have the required PIDs.
Edit still has the "IAC Park table" as ECT doesn't it?? It's IAT based (Thanks gojo and NW!!
).
Originally Posted by Predator
Can you be more specific about what mistakes you had in your tuning with Edit, and what table(s)/feature(s) EFILive had that solved those mistakes (and were missing in Edit)? Thanks.
Last edited by Oatmeal; Dec 21, 2005 at 10:01 PM.
TECH Addict
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Las Vegas, NV
Thanks for the replies fellas, and I get your points. It seems that if I ever upgrade to a more radical setup, or even a bigger cam, I would be at a disadvantage trying to tune with Edit, but for now I'm in pretty good shape. I just can't see dropping the coin at present for a better tuning program, but maybe down the road.
BTW HumpinSS, I downloaded the demo version Of EFILive, and from what I could tell it seems like a great tuning tool. Thanks for the help!
BTW HumpinSS, I downloaded the demo version Of EFILive, and from what I could tell it seems like a great tuning tool. Thanks for the help!
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10 Second Club
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,755
Likes: 2
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
I saw a quote once that went something like this. "incompetent people can't recognize true competence because they don't have the level of competence to tell the difference, you have to be competent to recognize incompetence." I've known people throughout my life that truly believe they are expert at something. They are not wise enough to understand that the knowledge level goes way beyond their own. As far as the edit vs other software. I own an auto repair shop. We have five scanners and I have to buy a lot of equipment to stay current in my business. Almost always when I replace an older piece of equipment with something newer I say to myself "I can't believe I went as long as I did before updating", because the newer piece usually makes my job a lot easier. I still have edit because my tune has been decent. But after seeing what looks like a true consensus that tuning becomes much easier with the newer products, I think I'm going to get HPT to work out an A/F bug.
FormerVendor
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, Australia
i think the business management folks have the 4 quadrants as:
1. Competent Aware (you are good and you know it - you are likely the boss)
2. Incompetent Aware (you suck and you know it - you will be given a few chances to improve)
3. Ignorantly Competent (you rock but you don't know it - you are likley getting screwed on your salary)
4. Ignorantly Incompetent (start looking for another job)
guess which quadrant you don't wanna be in
It's funny cos many managers are either 1. or 4. If you are a company with a lot of managers who are 4 you will go broke.
1. Competent Aware (you are good and you know it - you are likely the boss)
2. Incompetent Aware (you suck and you know it - you will be given a few chances to improve)
3. Ignorantly Competent (you rock but you don't know it - you are likley getting screwed on your salary)
4. Ignorantly Incompetent (start looking for another job)
guess which quadrant you don't wanna be in
It's funny cos many managers are either 1. or 4. If you are a company with a lot of managers who are 4 you will go broke.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
From: Nortern Idaho
Originally Posted by SideStep
Yupper... He seems to always be TROLLING with some useless garbage post... explaining how we are all GD idiots and he is the master...
Does he even own a LSx based car/truck???
Does he even own a LSx based car/truck???
Originally Posted by jbuckweiser
I'm extremely pleased with my JR tuned car and he's been good about tweaking after relearning the tune. PS. he has a 99MALLETT Vette and a LS Pickup.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 12
From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Ive replied to him but they censor the **** so he wont see any of my responses. class act maybe he will see this thread and drop by and give us some more wisdom
And people wonder why it is dead.
I really applauded these guys when they struck out. I put all my eggs in their basket, initially. But, talk about a lesson in bad management of a qualified head-start in LS1 Tuning...
I think I wills top there... I HATE typing a post only to have it bounced back to me ... especially I hate seeing the moderation done in a biased fashion.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 12
From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by foff667
VE tuning is just the newest fad...its some hocus pocus table that hptuners & efilive invented thats not even in the pcm. Volumetric efficiency is that even a word?
Volumetric
Of or relating to measurement by volume.
efficiency
The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.
The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
Volumetric efficiency (as relates to engines)
Volumetric efficiency in internal combustion engine design refers to the efficiency with which the engine can move the charge into and out of the cylinders. More correctly, volumetric efficiency is a ratio (or percentage) of what volume of fuel and air actually enters the cylinder during induction to the actual capacity of the cylinder under static conditions.
Are you suggesting there isn't any such animal?
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 12
From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by Predator
That JR rant showed up in my mailbox too.
Here's my .02, for what it's worth. I think EASE is a great scanning program, but there are other options out there. I've dealt with JR and he's been helpful getting me sorted out. In the beginning he recommended going back to a stock MAF and upgrading my injectors, which I did, and he was exactly right, as far as I'm concerned. I had him tune my idle in which he did a terrific job, it's perfect. He seems to be able to extrapolate data from EASE to arrive at a good power producing tune using MORE than just the deltorq PID. I've never been able to do it, so I picked up an LM-1 to help me with that job. I started with LS1 Edit, and still use it, because I've seen no reason to switch. It'll get the job done as well as any other package. Tuning is more about the tuner than the software program. I don't think he's an "idiot," just close-minded and set in his ways. I think he's as wrong bashing HP Tuners as others are bashing LS1 Edit. An eye for an eye I guess.
Overall, my dealing with JR have been more helpful than anything as I've learned to look beyond character flaws. Anyway, just my humble .02. FWIW.
Here's my .02, for what it's worth. I think EASE is a great scanning program, but there are other options out there. I've dealt with JR and he's been helpful getting me sorted out. In the beginning he recommended going back to a stock MAF and upgrading my injectors, which I did, and he was exactly right, as far as I'm concerned. I had him tune my idle in which he did a terrific job, it's perfect. He seems to be able to extrapolate data from EASE to arrive at a good power producing tune using MORE than just the deltorq PID. I've never been able to do it, so I picked up an LM-1 to help me with that job. I started with LS1 Edit, and still use it, because I've seen no reason to switch. It'll get the job done as well as any other package. Tuning is more about the tuner than the software program. I don't think he's an "idiot," just close-minded and set in his ways. I think he's as wrong bashing HP Tuners as others are bashing LS1 Edit. An eye for an eye I guess.
Overall, my dealing with JR have been more helpful than anything as I've learned to look beyond character flaws. Anyway, just my humble .02. FWIW.
I kinda agree with this.
I think he can be closed-minded, but enjoyed many of his perspectives. I don't agree with him about EFILive or HPT being trash, of course. And I think he doesn't care about rubbing folk the wrong way. I can think of a few people on here that do the same thing.
I think a lot of people focused on when he seemed to put his foot in his mouth or his apparent unreasonable attacks on EFILive and such that they could never see the insight and merit many of his comments have.
I'm the kind of person, unless I'm being attacked directly, I can see the wheat in the tares and it's redeeming value.
If more of us could discuss things with out the acid wit and burning sarcasm, we would all probably learn a lot more ... and find people are wiling to evaluate other perspectives than their own.
Originally Posted by Black LS1 T/A
Are you suggesting there isn't any such animal?
LOL.
just so you know for sure that hes joking.... take a look at the HPtuners V2.0 help file...
heres a little snippet of it:
Originally Posted by Black LS1 T/A
Well ... it's two words.
Volumetric
Of or relating to measurement by volume.
efficiency
The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.
The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
Volumetric efficiency (as relates to engines)
Volumetric efficiency in internal combustion engine design refers to the efficiency with which the engine can move the charge into and out of the cylinders. More correctly, volumetric efficiency is a ratio (or percentage) of what volume of fuel and air actually enters the cylinder during induction to the actual capacity of the cylinder under static conditions.
Are you suggesting there isn't any such animal?
Volumetric
Of or relating to measurement by volume.
efficiency
The ratio of the effective or useful output to the total input in any system.
The ratio of the energy delivered by a machine to the energy supplied for its operation.
Volumetric efficiency (as relates to engines)
Volumetric efficiency in internal combustion engine design refers to the efficiency with which the engine can move the charge into and out of the cylinders. More correctly, volumetric efficiency is a ratio (or percentage) of what volume of fuel and air actually enters the cylinder during induction to the actual capacity of the cylinder under static conditions.
Are you suggesting there isn't any such animal?
"VE hacking is a fade that some vendors started and as other fades will go away when people find everytime the weather changes in seasons that their VE tune is no longer any good. EPA did not require a MAF for nothing its much smarter then some hardcoded values in a VE table."
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 12
From: Raleigh, NC
This kind of stuff HumpinSS points out is what I was always after Carputing to do with LS1Edit ... the item descriptions alone are worth their weight in gold. The customer support is second to none ... I know Paul will chat back with you in a heartbeat about issues ... he jumps on them like white on rice.
I've seen HPT folk regularly interact with peeps on this board about their product. I've ALWAYS loved vendors that do this, even when it is made rough by some folk on the boards.
If HPT had allowed competitive upgrades when they first started, I would likely have been an HPT man, but they waited too late and I went with EFILive. I'm happy with my choice, but may not have waited except for that.
LS1Edit was a trailblazer... just too bad they lacked vision beyond what they'd established.
I've seen HPT folk regularly interact with peeps on this board about their product. I've ALWAYS loved vendors that do this, even when it is made rough by some folk on the boards.
If HPT had allowed competitive upgrades when they first started, I would likely have been an HPT man, but they waited too late and I went with EFILive. I'm happy with my choice, but may not have waited except for that.
LS1Edit was a trailblazer... just too bad they lacked vision beyond what they'd established.
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Predator if you really feel like making the comparison without spending any money you can dload the trail version of EFILives software at http://www.efilive.com/downloads/sof...14_456_329.exe then you can go through and compare what is there and what isnt. The descritions alone for each table and its functionality will help you along with any questions you may have about the new things you see in the software. Play around with it for some time and then maybe you can come back and tell us your experience using a newer tuning tool.
When i look at the tuning tools and take edit and compare it to EFILive I see it like this.
I am a carpenter and my boss just asked me to break a 4" concrete slab and hands me a hammer used for nailing nails in decks or wood (Edit). Of course I can still break the slab but how long is it gonna take or how efficient will i be at breaking this slab?
On the other hand my boss asks the same question and instead hands me a sledge hammer to break that slab (EFILive/HPTuners). Which would you prefer to get the job done. I know what I choose
Even if the slab was 2" thick (224 cam) I still would want the sledge hammer to Git er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
When i look at the tuning tools and take edit and compare it to EFILive I see it like this.
I am a carpenter and my boss just asked me to break a 4" concrete slab and hands me a hammer used for nailing nails in decks or wood (Edit). Of course I can still break the slab but how long is it gonna take or how efficient will i be at breaking this slab?
On the other hand my boss asks the same question and instead hands me a sledge hammer to break that slab (EFILive/HPTuners). Which would you prefer to get the job done. I know what I choose
Even if the slab was 2" thick (224 cam) I still would want the sledge hammer to Git er done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!