TaTommyWS6

I understand that dyno tuning is the best way to tune a car, but is buying LS1Edit an OK alternative?

It seems kinda expensive (wasteful) to throw spend $400-$500 bucks everytime you makea change to your engine for dyno tuning. Or am I completely off, and it is not that much?

Is it really hard to learn how to use LS1Edit, or just not easy to setup A/F without a Dyno?

I am asking because I will be installing a new cam in the spring, and maybe install headers down the road a bit...

Thanks!

Tommy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

FastAl

I've been debating this very same thing. I have finally come to the conculsion that in the long run buying and learning LS1Edit is the better answer.

Come spring I'm going to order LS1Edit and will do most of the tuning based off of the O2 sensors by logging with Autotap. Once I'm happy there I'll take my Z28 onto the local dyno and get wideband readings and make adjustments there that I hope are just fine tuning.

Predator

If you're using EASE as your scanner, you can tune a/f without a wideband. The delivered torque value is accurate, so you base your changes on that number rather than the O2s. My point is that with LS1 Edit and EASE you can do all your own tuning. It's definitely the way to go if you can bite the bullet on the start off costs.

tuff

iTrader: (15)

FLP charges 450.00 last time i checked

tuff

iTrader: (15)

FLP charges 450.00 last time i checked

TaTommyWS6

Does anyone know what a "typical" dyno tuning sessions costs?

Tim Sloper

AutoTap also gives you DelTq btw. Don't mistake DelTq as a complete substitute for a WB 02 sensor. Tuning with DelTq has two draw backs...

1) It may help you tweak fuel to obtain the greatest reported torque values in a certain range but that doesn't mean your A/F ratio is correct. It is no better than tuning on a dyno without a WB sensor. You could play all day long and produce some great TQ/HP numbers but go and add a WB sensor and you may find yourself at an A/F ratio of 14:1.

2) DelTq is a calculated value. For it to be accurate the data going into the equation must be accurate. Once any piece of information is not representative of actual the accuracy of DelTq goes out the window. Things like changing injector flow rates, MAF tables, MAF housings, etc. will all effect DelTq. A stock MAF sensor is already very inaccurate at higher flow rates to begin with.

I can understand an individual resorting to less accurate methods if they are on a budget and can't afford to have someone dyno tune your car with WB support. For a shop to not use a wideband sensor (dyno or portable unit) would make me wonder why they would take such an indirect and error prone approach.

Tim

Predator

Tim, A-Tap still needs to address their inaccurate delivered torque values. Tuning on a wideband does not represent real world driving conditions any more than, for example, a football team trying to create a game condition at their practices; what might be an ideal a/f ratio on a dyno does not translate directly to the street. This is one of the great myths that endures keeping the profits rolling in for tuners, dyno operaters, and B&B Electronics.

Tim Sloper

Re-read my post (also my post in the other thread)...

I make mention of WB on the street and portable WB units. WB on the street is the best possible approach. WB on the dyno is the next best. You absolutely cannot derive an AF ratio from DelTQ. Tuning via DelTQ when it comes to AF ratios is risky at best. I'm not saying you won't make good torque numbers but you won't know where your AF ratio is at.

BTW... I see you are in Worcester. I went to WPI 92-96.

Tim

Predator

Fair enough Tim, but if my car is making maximun delivered torque, running its best, then the a/f ratio is optimum, and the a/f numbers have taken care of themselves <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> .

WPI is one of the best engineering schools in the country. Congrats! We just got another foot of snow overnight <img border="0" alt="[shoot]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_guns.gif" /> . I'm up so early cause I gotta shovel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> .

TaTommyWS6

If I get LS1Edit, I'm pretty sure I could easily:

I can raise the rev limiter,

Modify the misfire indicator not to detect misfires below a certain rpm due to a lopey idle.

Desensitize the knock sensor.

But what value(s) have to be changed to correct for a/f. Is this a function of determining my ltrims?

Someone needs to write LS1Edit for Dummies!

Thanks again for the info.


Most importantly, is my engine "safe" if I don't get it tuned? Or if is possible the a/f will be so far off it can ruin the engine? Thanks!

Tommy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

parish8

iTrader: (6)

you can do all those things prety easily with ls1edit except the knock sensors. i have really bad false knock and with ls1edit you can make it react slower to knock and recover faster after knock but if you like me with continuas false knock at wot it doesn't help, slower reacting is still almost instant.

TaTommyWS6

Is your false knock coming from an aftermarket cam, or is it being caused by somethin else (or are you not sure...)

Does this cause a significant performance loss?

Damn computers.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tommy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Tim Sloper

Parish,

Which cam are you running? I haven't hit false knock yet on any of the cammed cars I've tuned. You would be suprised to see how 1 degree of timing can make or break things from that point on. I've done a number of setups where all it took was 1-2 degrees of timing pulled in the correct spots and full timing advance comes back and KR completely disappears.

I haven't had to touch an knock sensor fields yet (of course this is certainly bound to change lol).

Tim

parish8

iTrader: (6)

my set up is listed below, stock 6.0 with a blower. even at only 5.5psi and 15deg of timing i get the max KR of 8deg at wot, tried 100octane gas and got the same thing, for some reason the trucks seem to see alot of false KR, i spent 4 hours with ls1edit and got no where then got a couple of 10cent resistors and wired those in and now no more false knock. it seems to still hear the real knock though because the couple of times i actualy heard pinging it saw it and pulled timing.

Predator

Tommy, you can alter your LTFTs by making minor adjustments to the MAF table (+or-5%), the Injector Flow Rate table, or even by adding or removing things like ported mafs, maf ends, airfilters, etc. Power enrichment and WOT is manipulated through the PE vs RPM table. You can get fancy and tune each cell, or just apply a percentage to the table, for example, x95% to pull a little fuel, or x110% to add fuel; it's the same with the other tables.

Tim Sloper

I would be very very cautious doing anything with the knock sensors on a FI application. Do you have any Autotap logs showing timing, KR, RPM, and MAF throughout a few runs? Also, the timing table that is associated with those runs and wideband O2 readings if you have them.

I tuned an ATI C5 (7 lbs/headers) a couple weeks ago that came in with the stock ATI tune. The timing was very bad... a lot of KR. Here are the before and after results. None of the knock sensor parameters were touched. We ended up picking up around 30 RWHP across a wide range. I'll have the graphs up on our website later tonite.

2477 26.5 0.0
2722 27.5 0.0
2973 28.5 0.0
3288 28.5 0.0
3566 28.5 0.0
3872 24.5 2.4
4151 16.0 9.8
4386 16.0 9.1
4681 15.0 8.2
5027 15.0 7.3
5324 14.5 6.8
5557 14.0 6.2
5830 13.5 5.6
6054 13.0 5.1


2433 26.5 0.0
2756 20.0 0.0
3076 20.5 0.0
3438 20.5 0.0
3796 19.5 0.0
4188 18.0 0.0
4572 16.5 0.0
4992 15.0 0.0
5353 14.0 0.0
5737 13.0 0.0
6057 12.0 0.0

Tim

Team ZR-1

IMHO,
most dyno tuning will not give the best overall performance tune.

Delivered Torque PID using autotap is bogus, that has been broken and giving invalid values for 2 years and they still never fixed it along with others incorrect. For tuning like this a better PCM scanner is a must.

B&B scanners are also it too damn slow to do good tuning when at high high load and PCM and class B buss is too busy.
Values of other functions can cause DelTq value changes ( mostly from screwing with MAF) but overall it is damn close for it has to be else when other functions decide to trip on like active handling or traction control it they kicked in due to bogus DelTq, car owners would be screaming.
All testing I have done on the dyno with many C5s while on my scanner prove DelTq being close to what dyno reports.

On dyno the engine only uses a few trim cells, much better with realworld driving where a good recording of PCM will allow ALL cells to be viewed and tuned and not just a few, for over time PCM will maintain what the program in PCM ROM says and will cause any tuning to shift, esp if only a few cells were used to make decisions of what to tune and by how much.

Between dyno pulls, idles between runs will effect next run from going high engine load to idle or shut downs, clearly STFT, thus dyno tuning does not show how PCM will react over time and throughout all trim cells.
PCM adjusts/learns every 10 minutes thus what is seen at one time does not mean later when the conditions change that the values seen for 2 minutes on the dyno were true averages.

WIdeband, esp if 1 used in a muffler tip is useless long term. many times AFR is really too lean thus PCM attempts to correct with longer pulse widths, thus it look like from exhaust ruch when in fact PCM was trying to correct a lean condition.

If you look at engine load PID and fuel learn PID you find on a dyno that engine rarely gets to 90 to 100% load, I can do that easy pulling up a hill on the street in PE and get better realworld conditions.

Local guy here with a ATI, get hooked into a dyno tuner shop, charged him $800 for just a dyno tune ( plus cost of driving 700 miles to that shop) is refused to be at the shop when dyno pulls were done and then claims 650 RWHP but tells the car owner the engine is now running 30% too lean and go install a MAF-T and lie to PCM by 30% of MAF Freq !!

20 cars are dyno'd some do dyno tuning, I then tune them via street runs and in the end they all got better performance and overall drving was better with my tunes over what they got on the dyno.

Its about how much timing, least amount of knock and not just what a AFR is esp when PCM only adjusts to sensors every 10 minutes, O2s are read only once second and not used during WOT only so PCM can be better tuned from street or even drag strip PCM recording then from a few minutes on a dyno where in most cases a dyno shop want you off ASAP so they can collect money from as many people in a day thus recorded info used to make tuning decisions is based on narrow operating range and will default back over PCM adaptive learn time.

It can take about 1 hour for PCM to adjust to changes ( about 50 miles) thus what is seen in a short time on dyno will change and reason I prefer PCM recording done over a long drive where the driver includes, cold/hot idle, with AC on and off, stop/go driving, engine load at 100%, fuel learn on/off, bouncing the rev limiter, most cells used, etc which can be done on the street better then static dyno tuning.
Engine can be gotten to 100% load on the street using lower gears or collecting data on the track for then tuning is based on all engine conditions.

Tuning could be done on the dyno if enough time was allowed on it but can be gotten faster from realworld driving conditions.

Predator

JR, it's interesting that a-tap's DELTORQ is "bogus," which forces the user to seek out a wideband for any kind of decent tune (unless you tune by O2s only, which is unreliable at best). I suspect that this intentional, and indirectly throws business to dyno operators and some tuners. I smell a conspiracy here. <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Team ZR-1:
<strong> . . . most dyno tuning will not give the best overall performance tune . . .
. . . Its about how much timing, least amount of knock . . .
. . . It can take about 1 hour for PCM to adjust to changes ( about 50 miles) thus what is seen in a short time on dyno will change and reason I prefer PCM recording done over a long drive where the driver includes, cold/hot idle, with AC on and off, stop/go driving, engine load at 100%, fuel learn on/off, bouncing the rev limiter, most cells used, etc which can be done on the street better then static dyno tuning . . .
. . . Tuning could be done on the dyno if enough time was allowed on it but can be gotten faster from realworld driving conditions. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ditto ALL of the above.
Get Edit, tune your own chit, and then go to the dyno every couple of weeks in between tunes with plenty of learning miles to see your progress.
Stop going to the dyno when you've peaked <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />