Do I Need a dyno to get a tune?
Do I Need a dyno to get a tune? I am going to build a 6.0 with some L92's and a decent cam. Can I get a mail order tune or do I need to put the car/engine on a dyno? I really don't know how the tune thing works. How would it be possible for a tuner to get the air/fuel right without a dyno? This would be a 6.0 adapted to an older car. Can somebody shed some light on the whole tuning thing? Thanks fellas.
I'm personally not a fan of dyno tuning...
I feel that the street/track with the proper tools (HPT Pro, wideband) is the best way to tune a car...
But if you must dyno tune the car, I suggest a true loading dyno such as a Mustang Dyno.
Good luck.
I feel that the street/track with the proper tools (HPT Pro, wideband) is the best way to tune a car...
But if you must dyno tune the car, I suggest a true loading dyno such as a Mustang Dyno.
Good luck.
Lets say you were my tuner. Could I send you my engine computer for a tune or do you have to be in the vehicle? Im just not ready to be tuning on a laptop. I am a carb guy so this is german to me.
So, I would need to be in the car...
Tuning can be done in several methods, here are the most common:
Dyno Tuning (two parts):
WOT Tuning - This method only fixes the fuel at full throttle, no driveability tuning.
Load Tuning - This method employs load tuning to tune the air/fuel ratio across the entire engine operating range. It is safer then street tuning, because you do not have to worry about breaking local laws (speeding, wreckless driving).
Both of these employ a wideband in the tailpipe for reading the air/fuel ratio. Power results can be seen for true increases, if it liked a richer mixxture or more/less timing.
Street (or Track) Tuning (two parts):
Wideband Tuning - This method is similar to a Load Dyno Tune, but on real world conditions. It is a very accurate as the air/fuel are tuned precisely as the vehicle will be operated.
Fuel Trim Tuning - This uses the ECM fuel trim correction to fine tune the part throttle air/fuel ratio. This method is not recommended for tunign WOT as the fuel trims will lock at WOT and either add more fuel or not.
Wideband Tuning employs a wideband (typically) in place of the front O2 sensor for reading the air/fuel ratio. Unlike Dyno Tuning, you can't honestly tell if the fuel mixture or timing made more power, without outside variables.
Mail Order - This method is based on similar previous calibrations done by a tuner. This is the least recommended method of tuning, but it can get your car running so you can drive it to get tuned in person.
Email Tuning (new) - Similar to Mail Order Tuning, but correspondence is via email. You would need a scanner and flash program to make adjustments with your tuner. He sends you files corrected based on the scanned data you send him.
Hope this helps.
Edit: You can do any of these, provided you invest time to learn what each of the tables do and how to navigate the software. All professional tuners started at the same level.
Dyno Tuning (two parts):
WOT Tuning - This method only fixes the fuel at full throttle, no driveability tuning.
Load Tuning - This method employs load tuning to tune the air/fuel ratio across the entire engine operating range. It is safer then street tuning, because you do not have to worry about breaking local laws (speeding, wreckless driving).
Both of these employ a wideband in the tailpipe for reading the air/fuel ratio. Power results can be seen for true increases, if it liked a richer mixxture or more/less timing.
Street (or Track) Tuning (two parts):
Wideband Tuning - This method is similar to a Load Dyno Tune, but on real world conditions. It is a very accurate as the air/fuel are tuned precisely as the vehicle will be operated.
Fuel Trim Tuning - This uses the ECM fuel trim correction to fine tune the part throttle air/fuel ratio. This method is not recommended for tunign WOT as the fuel trims will lock at WOT and either add more fuel or not.
Wideband Tuning employs a wideband (typically) in place of the front O2 sensor for reading the air/fuel ratio. Unlike Dyno Tuning, you can't honestly tell if the fuel mixture or timing made more power, without outside variables.
Mail Order - This method is based on similar previous calibrations done by a tuner. This is the least recommended method of tuning, but it can get your car running so you can drive it to get tuned in person.
Email Tuning (new) - Similar to Mail Order Tuning, but correspondence is via email. You would need a scanner and flash program to make adjustments with your tuner. He sends you files corrected based on the scanned data you send him.
Hope this helps.
Edit: You can do any of these, provided you invest time to learn what each of the tables do and how to navigate the software. All professional tuners started at the same level.
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TECH Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,259
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From: Lexington, KY
If you buy the software (HP or EFI), most likely someone would be willing to send you a baseline tune to get you running. Then you can work on it from there. Ask around their repsective forums and/or here. There is a pretty steep learning curve but once you get into it and learn your way around a little it's not that bad. And plenty will help if you actualy have one of these software packages, including looking at your logs and recommending where to go or editing your tune for you. And a wideband is a must, install it before even attempting to start the motor.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Fanatic
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 0
From: Lexington, KY
Her ya go, I will get you started, here is my tune. Mods in sig. AFR is very good, I am running 12.8:1 at WOT, 27 degrees WOT timing, cruising speed it runs a nice steady 14.6 or so :1 ratio.
Idles at 875-900, PCM was Speed Density tuned to fine tune the VE tables up to WOT not just up to 4000 and then MAF only tuned and remarried, runs very good, good transitions. All tuning was done with a NGK WB using AFR error %.
MAF is within less than 2% error to the wideband, most cells are less than 1%.
Idles at 875-900, PCM was Speed Density tuned to fine tune the VE tables up to WOT not just up to 4000 and then MAF only tuned and remarried, runs very good, good transitions. All tuning was done with a NGK WB using AFR error %.
MAF is within less than 2% error to the wideband, most cells are less than 1%.
This info is great guys! Thanks for the info and the tune. Should I go injected or carbed? Thats kind of my situation. Im getting decent at tuning carbs but I hear there are more advantages to efi. Is the throttle response way better than a carb? Anyone ever use Megasquirt?
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Joined: Feb 2007
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The stock computers in LS series motors are 1) very easy to work with, and 2) very capable. The hard part is in the editor learning where to go when you want to make a particular change, and in the scanner, setting it up to scan the data you want and need. For the most part, except for extremely high horsepower and high rpm applications, there's no reason to go to an aftermarket fuel management set up.
Personally I'm a fan of loaded dyno tuning. Since I finally got one of my projects running, tuned on our Mustang Dyno, then being able to scan it on the street to compare the differences in fuel trims between the both. As of my last data log, my LTFT's are +-1 across the board, and this is pretty good considereing the entire fuel maps were done on a dyno.
As far as widebands, the Innovate LM-1 is what most dynos are equiped with.
Personally I'm a fan of loaded dyno tuning. Since I finally got one of my projects running, tuned on our Mustang Dyno, then being able to scan it on the street to compare the differences in fuel trims between the both. As of my last data log, my LTFT's are +-1 across the board, and this is pretty good considereing the entire fuel maps were done on a dyno.
As far as widebands, the Innovate LM-1 is what most dynos are equiped with.
Well, you already have the PCM. It runs your car You need a wideband (such as the LC-1 or LM-1) and the software, such as EFILive or HPTuners. You will also need a laptop computer. After that, you have an excellent support group.
I actualy don't have the pcm. I havent got a motor yet. I am doing a swap. I will be removing the sbc that I built in favor of a 6.0 when I get it. I have a completed project, I just want to move up to an ls motor. The sbc I have now is fast and I have a good strong drivetrain attatched to it. But an ls motor would be way more power on pump gas.