TomXTC

They do actually appear higher as well, at least from my rough estimation looking at the photo. Also I don't think that the stock lights were of very good quality on my car. I mean look at what they installed for the main headlights, not exactly state of the art. They work reasonably well so I am not complaining, just sayin'. To be fair my super duper fog lights are probably not adjusted as well as they could be, so not optimized. Still they are weak. OTOH they are about the perfect size for full size car HID projectors. Those would be 3 times brighter than the main headlights and if they were not so low as to be impossible to adjust properly be an excellent yet completely stock looking system.
It would allow me to keep the main headlights down. Many people think they look a bit ugly when popped up. Personally it is night and I don't care. But as I do have a full brand new HID system with Bi-Xenon (both high and low beam in one projector) I just might actually do that mod.

I like the WS6 but also like the look of your Formula. Formula WS6 cars have often been a good option IMO. The best deal I think I ever got on a Firebird was a 1987 Formula WS6 - white with a manual trans. I traded something that cost me $40 for the car which was close to mint. It did have the "turbo hood" I never liked so I replaced that with a flat one and swapped on fenders from a 84 T/A that had the side vents but for the price I bought it at I had money left over for a few mods

I did buy a red 83 in the early 90's for $1400 and did nothing but put gas and drive it for the summer. Well I took a screw driver and adjusted the carb so it ran right. Then I sold it for $3800 a few months later which was also a pretty good deal for me. Still I liked the 87 better for some reason.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Yea, the stock bulbs are relics of the '70's. Do you know about the LMC housing conversion? That will get you modern on the headlights and high beams.

You might also check your fog housings. I had one where the silver backing disintegrated. The new housing made things a lot better. I also upgraded to a bluer bulb and that has improved my fog lights, as well.

TomXTC

Changing to the housings that allow for decent halogen bulbs is a no brainer. I should do that. That is a likely mod when I get around to it.
I am big time against any HID kits that don't use actual HID projectors so I won't be doing that and a conversion would not be easy with the pop ups.

Using those LMC housings and cutting out the backs to accept Morimoto Mini HID projectors has been done but far too big a hassle and when you add in they are pop up headlights would be a real nightmare I would not do. But to have the decent halogens makes all sorts of sense for sure.

Honestly I have not looked at the fog lights yet. If the reflectors are bad they will be even worse but I will seriously check them out for condition and alignment and at the same time confirm if they would be a good candidate for HID projectors. I think I could make the fit and operation look stock but if they are too low might be impossible to adjust properly. Just a thought since I already have a full second kit I used on the bike. $450 worth of stuff I am not using for anything and probably won't.

TomXTC

I replaced the window motor on the passenger side tonight.
Foolishly I did not have a lot of time so did not ask what were the best brands to buy and went cheap. WHAT ARE THE BEST REPLACEMENT MOTOR BRANDS? I am now finding out why they were so cheap. But that is only part of the picture.

Before the passengers side window would only work either with the drivers side switch or the passenger side switch. Never both. Then the motor died.
I replaced it tonight and while the motor works and sounded smooth when just plugged in with no load on it when it goes up and down it is not quite as fast as the drivers side and the motor does not sound as smooth, like it is probably a weaker motor laboring to get the motor up and down.

But now the drivers side window that was working fine is beginning to stop working intermittently just during the time I was comparing the two windows and their speed. I would let the drivers side cool down for a short time and it would work again.

I did not put the door panel back on as I am seriously thinking of getting a higher quality motor to replace the cheapo one (I got two for $36 including shipping. Made In China). I have found some reasonably priced AC Delco as well as Dorman and Cardone motors available. First look they are around $35 including shipping. So first question I should have asked before is AC Delco the best replacement or is there an even better brand to go with? I want to do it right the first time and I don't know what I was thinking putting cheap parts in a hard to get to place like that. I guess I thought they would just not last longer but it seems they are also not as powerful which is both a problem now and will lead to premature failure.

Secondly does this sound like the drivers side motor that worked perfectly before including the express down has suddenly and coincidentally gone bad at the same time I installed the new motor on the other side or is there something else I should check. Remember in the past I had that issue where the switches were acting funny which I could not explain. Now both switches work for both windows but I am not sure what else could be going on. I want to make sure that there is nothing other than the window motor that could be going on.

While the motor I just installed technically works I would rather put in something good to begin with. It just seems like it is not getting all the power it should and even if adding some lubrication to some parts would help with window operation I would think a brand new motor should have the power to overcome that, even a cheap one for a short time. It does not even have the drag of the door panel trim being put on yet. It also is faster going down than up which says weak to me. I did use a bit larger screws, some 1/4 inch ones I drilled the holes out for and used Nylocks on them.



Thanks in advance.

DrEvyl

iTrader: (5)

I was having a similar problem with my Formula a few months ago. I understand that there's a fuse in there that interrupts power for a few minutes if the motors get too hot. My motors were old and weak and super slow.. so they triggered it almost every time I put the windows up and down. I'd be putting it back up and it would get half way up and then stop. I'd have to let it sit for about 5 mins then try again to get the window all the way up. I didn't have the express down issue though.

Had both window motors replaced and they re-lubed the whole setup and mine works perfectly now. I have an extended warranty on my car, so thankfully I didn't have to pay for it... they did this and replaced the entire A/C setup, so it pretty much paid for itself right there.. LOL

TomXTC

Could be, but it makes me wonder why that would not have been tripped before. The one motor seemed to work pretty well. If I don't get replies I am going to try to figure out which is the best motor as on my other thread there were a couple opinions but it got turned down a different road so I thought a new one for a new problem.

I am kicking myself for not buying good motors and also now will have to both wait for the new ones and install two instead of one. It keeps getting worse.

Actually last night on top of everything else I closed the passenger door and locked my keys in the car which never happens. That was no big deal. I had it open in about a minute by poking the power door open on the drivers side with a steel rod. It was just a sign of how things were disintegrating.

Extended warranty? Never heard of one that paid for anything before. Sounds like you got lucky. I still have bits of fiberglass in my hands. As much as I don't like doing this right now I would like even less to pay someone big money to do this relatively small yet annoying task.

DrEvyl

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, so far every time I've had an extended warranty I've had to pay for some stuff, but the cost of the repairs ended up making it pay for itself. I paid $1000 for the warranty on my Formula, and it's paid for over $4000 in repairs so far.

TomXTC

Even the public service messages warn about warranties not from the manufacturer. I have only heard of horror stories. I guess you had the right things break down at the right time for you. I wonder what would happen if it were to need a new motor or transmission or other expensive item. Glad you are getting your monies worth at least. I don't know what the cost of paying a shop to replace motors is but I can see them charging a lot. My one foolish mistake was going cheap on the motors. I rarely do that and it is not surprising I got what I paid for.
I am just curious if AC Delco or another brand is the way to go since I need to get this thing together as it is my DD.

eseibel67

iTrader: (10)

ACI makes the motors for AC Delco. Quality is premium, I wouldn't touch anything but.

http://www.aciauto.com/ROOT-Home/Content.aspx

TomXTC

[QUOTE=wssix99;18119083]You do know to get the new Dorman design, right?

I made a new post but those $36/pair motors turned out to be crap as expected.
They are a no name made in China. The look ok and come with both screws and big replacement rivets and when I plugged them in seemed OK but when under load seem weak. I used 1/4 inch screws and nylocks so they are in good. But while they work they are not quite as fast as the OEM one in the drivers side plus while they sounded fine before but installed I can hear a sort of "errr, errr, errr" of the motor which I think means it is struggling a bit being underpowered. The motor is not stuttering but the motor sounds like it is not getting enough power to it and/or it is not a high enough quality to put out as much power as it should. Probably both.

So now both of the window switches operate the passenger side which did not happen before. But also when I rolled both windows up and down repeatedly or at the same time the one in the drivers door now will stop and then when given time to rest start working again.

I have found out that likely much of my problem is the poorly designed stock wiring. I see there are kits from Autotrix.com that have wires and relays and are supposed to help both worn and good condition motors by giving them direct power but the passenger side is $35 which I would go for but the driver or passenger side with express down is $135 which I am not going to pay for.
I would be happy if they were both just as fast as OEM.

So anyway I looked again briefly at other brand motors since I have not buttoned the passenger door back up as I want to get a good motor in there for sure at least. For the same price I have found AC Delco, Dorman and Cardone. I don't know what is supposed to be the best brand and why. Typically unless I have other information I go for the OEM AC Delco part. All of those brands are about $35 shipped as far as I have looked so far. Suggestion on what is the best brand? I know you thought Dorman buy why? Any why vs AC Delco?

Also I was wondering what I should lubricate as long as I have things apart and with what, not having the manual I am not sure if there is anything I should do before putting the door back together.

I am guessing that the new motor is working harder due to being a weak product which is putting strain on the electrical system which is causing the issues with the drivers side motor which was fine before and was still faster than the new cheapo.

I used 1/4 inch screws with nylocks which makes the motor in firm and I don't think that could have made the gears out of alignment by the tiny bit of difference between the stock size and larger size mounting holes. My guess is it is using the cheapo motor combined with the poor stock wiring that is causing the issues and my best bet is to buy two new good quality motors and if I can find a cheap wiring fix do that too at a later date.

Anyway hopefully on one of the threads I will get some solid advice on the motors as I really don't know which is the top of the line. I think AC Delco is a safe bet but perhaps there is an upgraded aftermarket part I don't know about.

I shot myself in the foot buying the cheap motors but will order two new good brand motors and see how things work with the one good motor installed. If I have to I will do the drivers side too but hope not to as I don't have much time and have to drive the thing. I want to try to do things right within reason cost wise.

TomXTC

OK thanks. I will give them a try. I think part of the problem is the stock wiring. I have seen the Autotrix kits but the $135 a side is too much money for me to spend. I think perhaps the weak cheap motor is putting more strain on the wiring. I am going to order two new motors and see how it works after putting in the one that was bad and then see if the drivers side is back to normal or not.

My shop manuals are buried as I am moving. Are there any parts that I should lubricate while I have things apart and/or use a special lubricant that is better than stock?

Thanks for the advice!

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Well, I guess it sounds like you don't have an issue with the switches. That's good!

I'll see you in your other thread about the motor differences and Autotrix. Beware of Autotrix - some of the "facts" they give are not correct and some of the claims that their customers make on their behalf are untrue.

The motors you got were probably reman (even if labeled "new"). The motors have a number of failure modes and when parts are re-used during the reman process, it just doesn't make for a reliable motor. There are lots of these out there. GM has been installing them on cars since the 70's - so a reman you get could conceivably be that old! One of your motors has a bad thermal resistor (they probably re-used it in the reman) and the other is probably rusted or has electrical issues in the winding.

If you can get to the tracks, you want to use Syl-Glyde to lube the tracks. This matches the original grease and you won't have to worry about any grease compatibility issues. You may have to make a trip to NAPA to get this type of grease. (The big box stores list it on their web sites, bit I haven't seen it actually in their stores for years.)

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Do your new motors look like this?


This is the updated design, which is supposed to be 100% new and better sealed against moisture and contaminants. Dorman was the first to offer it, but the design is now showing up under other brands, like Cardone - those might be rebuilds!

Folks posting here have had pretty good success with the Dorman motors and, aside from a few issues here and there, seem to be pretty reliable.

You should be able to get these from a parts store locally and get a lifetime warranty with them. If you are going to keep the car for a while, this should be worth the money because some time down the road, these things will fail again on you.


Regarding the wiring... Autotrix and others make the claim that the stock wiring can't handle the motors. If that were true, than hundreds of thousands of cars rolling off the assembly line would have had issues. They didn't. Beware of the Autotrix fanboys - many proclaim their success after installing the kit with new motors. (The new motors themselves may have been enough to fix the issue.)

The Autotrix kit makes a bad motor look better. The value in the kits come from reduced intervals of motor replacements.

IMO - Once you have done the shbox method for motor replacement and have a lifetime warrantied motor in the door, the price for the Autotrix kits aren't worth it. Aside from the time to switch out the motor, any future replacements should be free.

TomXTC

I don't really know. The seller didn't seem to really know, saying they did not come with hardware but came with screws and rivets. They just did not sound right and as they were cheapo's I will at the very least try a different brand.
I asked on a couple forums and one person was very hot on ACI's which they claimed where who made motors for AC Delco who is usually a default company I will go to if I don't know of a better one. They were typically more expensive than most brands but I found one place for them much cheaper so only $25. I just won't put my door back together until they get here and I try them out. I know you said Dorman but did not say why and I did not find any standouts in a search of bad or good motors. Local autoparts stores would have got me them right away but at least double the price. I am glad I did not settle for the motors that were cheap but did not sound right. I did not do it right the first time but will now. Thanks for the suggestion on the lube. What I was and still also will get is Permatex silicone spray. It is good stuff and on some parts that are not heavily greased will help from rubber/plastic parts damage and leave a film to lubricate certain tracks. But can get the SynLube too. Man like I mentioned I should have made room for all those specialty products. I will build up a new collection now though.

TomXTC

They are all looking exactly the same unless painted differently. When I drilled the larger holes in the motors for the larger hardware it did seem like the way the two halves were put together was not high tech. It was only a few tabs of metal bent to keep them together and seemed like it could have stuff get in the gap between the halves, water for sure, easily. But those are the $16 M.I.C. motors that probably are new and just use the cheapest parts they can find to work and of course cheap labor. Looking at the photo I don't see much difference but the cheap new ones look more like the photo than the Delco. However if you look at where the two halves come together the Delco looks like it is together much better and tighter.

I will try the ACI motors and hope when I get one in, which is going to be easy now, will sound right. If so I will be happy and leave things alone unless the drivers motor is still acting funny with the new motor vs running fine before the cheap one was installed. I would rather just install the one motor but am getting two in case I need them. I might call around and see if I can find a price matched Dorman to make it cheap but I am not sure I can cancel the order for the two ACI's and would only do that to try to get this job done faster. If I knew for sure it was one motor it would be a bit different than if it were two. Even if I get refunds I will have 5-6 motors bought and dealing with.

I wish I had found some serious information on these motors. There should be an article on them that shows and compares them and opens them all up etc. to really compare the differences. When looking at the motor you posted the photo of vs other motors what are the key differences to look for to know if it is the same or not? As I said it is all beginning to look the same to me, motorhead.

As far as Autotrix and GM wiring I can see the system being weak but also having some safety features built in so that they don't have cars getting caught on fire. It is however not totally unheard of that a wiring harness for lighting or something else uses too small gauge wire or something else that was a flaw from the factory and can be upgraded to perform much better.

That was the reason I originally did the HID on my Suzuki GSF 1200S Bandit.
The OEM lighting was known to have issues. It has two projector type halogens in a housing in the front fairing area. One thing that accumulates is this black dust which is inside the housing. The lights are not as bright as they should be and when many owners measure the voltage at their bulbs it only meaures 9 Volts, so the 12 volt bulbs are not getting proper power. A new wiring harness with better larger gauge wire is one of the things done to fix that issue. I went much farther but would have never done so if it was not defective stock.

But on the other hand I have emailed Autotrix to get information from them but don't understand what they are selling for $135 I would never buy vs the $35 kit I would probably never buy. I will need to know more. I am not sure about that part of it but am going to get the good quality motor in and then hope things are just working as the drivers window always had or stock.

I have not investigated the Autotrix stuff seriously but I am not very confident they offer anything that I could not just do myself if I were after that. I would also want to know it was not bypassing some safety feature that mattered. Not that I would be unwilling to upgrade something that made sense and cost little but I am not getting close to dealing with that yet. But you are correct, in their video's they never show a brand new motor with or without their wiring. That is fishy. Of course if you have a worn motor and get more power to it the motor will run better for a while.

At most I will have to install motors on both sides. I don't care so much about the warranties (though good to have too) on these things where it is the labor that I want to avoid more than anything. It won't be as bad the second time but many parts might have a lifetime warranty on them but the labor to get to them is the real time consuming or costly part and I just try to get the best part and best installation practices to ensure I don't have to deal with it again. I am hoping to do that here regardless of how foolish I feel to have bought those cheap damn motors. I get deals all the time on everything. BUT I also get the best quality stuff there is. It was a rare moment I would give a try to something cheap I was not planning on throwing away.

I might check around on the motors I will see about cost and who has the Dorman and for how much and Azone will price match most anyone I can find if they sell them.
I recall seeing either Dorman or Cardone that was offering two different models, one reman and one new. Price differences from place to place and motor to motor and none that stood out. One reman was painted black and the rest look the same from a photo. But I might just take a few day break from this crap and wait for the new motors to arrive. Depends on how the day goes.

If ACI is who is making AC Delco then I will feel fine about that. I am not worried about the sealing of a motor but if there were a new part or other change that was an upgrade that would be nice to have. I am quite sure that I bought substandard motors and getting OEM equivalents or better will probably make things OK, I hope.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Syl-Glyde is a silicone based lubricant, so a spray should be fine. I imagine the tracks come from the factory gooped up with the grease because of all the water inside the door.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

That's the thing. The OEM motors are garbage and always have been. This is not a recent thing related to the cars being old. The motors went belly-up when the cars were new, also. My first motor change was at 25K miles and 3 years out from the factory.

TomXTC

Yeah well anything would be better than the junk cheap ones I got. Cardone has a higher end "select" one they claim has more torque and other things. Maybe, don't know, marketing. But they physically look the same to me. The one I took out was a Delco for sure and I assume the one that was working fine is too. I think they have lasted this long before going out which if they work as well as the one that was doing fine did it will be acceptable. Perhaps not ideal or as good as it gets but I hope these other new ones are as good as they claim at least. I will lube things up well to help out.

I have a slightly damaged part of the outside "felt" weather seal on the drivers door. It is cosmetic. I looked at a couple replacement for sale and was shocked at the price for those. I will keep looking until I find some cheap ones. But there are the other contact points that can have a film of silicone on them etc. to help a little bit.

So anyway the ones in the car appear to have lasted for over 15 years so if these last anywhere near that long would be nice. And not working like the weak POS that I bought and am taking back out...

I believe they are not an awesome design. Sort of like the pop up headlight motors. Been making less than great ones for a very long time in Birds and Vettes. It is called being to cheap instead of making something better.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

That's amazing. How many miles do you have and was the car garage kept?

TomXTC

The car had 33K when I bought it 4 years or so ago and 57K now. I have not always had it garaged and am unsure of the previous owner. I did not see any signs of water in the door at the time I was in there. Don't know, the motor I took out looks old but also looks like the two halves are sealed better than the cheapos. I hope the ACI's will work better. Perhaps should have gone with Cardone selects which are the to pick on Ebay but I didn't so will learn as I go I guess.

BTW I got an email back from Autotrix. They said the drivers side wiring had no inherent issues. Interesting.

I have major issues with the front blinker/running lights. Water gets in there very easily and has corroded the sockets so I am surprised they work at all. I need to get new sockets and remove and seal those. I am constantly replacing bulbs, especially if I run it through a car wash. Another issue for another time but a common one.