what should a 5th-gen TA look like?
10-14-2005, 10:04 AM
#21
Oh AMEN BROTHER!!!!
By the way that pic is a mildly altered Camaro Concept not a GM rendering...LOL!! I made it...I was bored last night.... and yeah HPP is right!!! Just drive around ina Ram Air TA and look at people faces!!! Drive in a Camaro and see people..looking the other way!!! Generic, boring...UGLY....LOL! No offense Im a Pontiac freak!!
By the way that pic is a mildly altered Camaro Concept not a GM rendering...LOL!! I made it...I was bored last night.... and yeah HPP is right!!! Just drive around ina Ram Air TA and look at people faces!!! Drive in a Camaro and see people..looking the other way!!! Generic, boring...UGLY....LOL! No offense Im a Pontiac freak!!
10-14-2005, 11:08 AM
#22
Originally Posted by chaman
Oh AMEN BROTHER!!!!
By the way that pic is a mildly altered Camaro Concept not a GM rendering...LOL!! I made it...I was bored last night.... and yeah HPP is right!!! Just drive around ina Ram Air TA and look at people faces!!! Drive in a Camaro and see people..looking the other way!!! Generic, boring...UGLY....LOL! No offense Im a Pontiac freak!!
By the way that pic is a mildly altered Camaro Concept not a GM rendering...LOL!! I made it...I was bored last night.... and yeah HPP is right!!! Just drive around ina Ram Air TA and look at people faces!!! Drive in a Camaro and see people..looking the other way!!! Generic, boring...UGLY....LOL! No offense Im a Pontiac freak!!
BTW a V6 Firebird is no looker either.
10-14-2005, 11:34 AM
#23
Sorry but I dont believe that. In car shows always the TA atracts more crowds. You see almost a ratio of 10 to 1 Camaros vs Firebirds. Yes V6 's are ugly as well as V6's Camaros so whats the point? First Gen Firebirds 6cil or 8cil are better looking and more rare than Camaros.
10-14-2005, 11:40 AM
#24
Originally Posted by chaman
Sorry but I dont believe that. In car shows always the TA atracts more crowds. You see almost a ratio of 10 to 1 Camaros vs Firebirds. Yes V6 's are ugly as well as V6's Camaros so whats the point? First Gen Firebirds 6cil or 8cil are better looking and more rare than Camaros.
10-14-2005, 11:49 AM
#26
Okay....learn to deal with other people opinions...using that language tells what youre made of...I consider Camaros and people who drive them all members of the muscle car comunity as Mopars, Fords etc....Grow up you are making a fool of yoursef.
I m willing to discuss the matter with adults, not children, get back to your mama...
I m willing to discuss the matter with adults, not children, get back to your mama...
is 
10-14-2005, 12:05 PM
#28
Originally Posted by chaman
Okay....learn to deal with other people opinions...using that language tells what youre made of...I consider Camaros and people who drive them all members of the muscle car comunity as Mopars, Fords etc....Grow up you are making a fool of yoursef.
I m willing to discuss the matter with adults, not children, get back to your mama...
I m willing to discuss the matter with adults, not children, get back to your mama...
10-14-2005, 12:26 PM
#30
Originally Posted by 01SSDRVR
Listen son, look up a picture of a 1969 GTO and a 1969 Firebird. I dont know how to post pics on here or I would, Oh I think I hear my mom calling, gotta go.
You have not debated the fact of the better quality of Pontiacs and the relative exclusivity, been that they are in fact more rare...Im not your son...HPP is, LOL!!!!! 
10-14-2005, 12:42 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by 01SSDRVR
I have, ive owned both. I get more complements with my SS then I did with my WS6. It looked like the batmobile, and everyone was sure to let me know.
BTW a V6 Firebird is no looker either.
BTW a V6 Firebird is no looker either.
MORE compliments in a SS than a WS6?? OH,c'mon man..
10-14-2005, 12:46 PM
#32
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Let's actually take a look at this -
'69 GTO -
'69 Firebird -
Really not all that similar. Furthermore, the initial comment was that the 1st Gen Firebird had a "GTO looking front end". Not "'69", "1st Gen". Given that there were 2 rev's of that design, it's an incomplete statement, and when left open, one tends to look at the version produced longer (as in 2 years vs 1).
We've already seen that the '67 GTO and '67 Firebird are rather different looking when it comes to their front ends. When you look at the '68 and '69 Firebird, you see an evolutionary change. One which isn't really reflected in the '69 GTO. So even then it's hard to make a case for Pontiac slapping a "GTO looking front" on it.
What's interesting though, is looking at different years. Look at the '67 Firebird, and the '69 GTO
'67 Firebird
'69 GTO
I'd venture to say the comment wasn't only wrong, but backwards.
'69 GTO -
'69 Firebird -
Really not all that similar. Furthermore, the initial comment was that the 1st Gen Firebird had a "GTO looking front end". Not "'69", "1st Gen". Given that there were 2 rev's of that design, it's an incomplete statement, and when left open, one tends to look at the version produced longer (as in 2 years vs 1).
We've already seen that the '67 GTO and '67 Firebird are rather different looking when it comes to their front ends. When you look at the '68 and '69 Firebird, you see an evolutionary change. One which isn't really reflected in the '69 GTO. So even then it's hard to make a case for Pontiac slapping a "GTO looking front" on it.
What's interesting though, is looking at different years. Look at the '67 Firebird, and the '69 GTO
'67 Firebird
'69 GTO
I'd venture to say the comment wasn't only wrong, but backwards.
10-14-2005, 12:59 PM
#34
To each his own. Yes, I get more compliments in my SS. Sorry if its hard to stomach. Ive owned both so you cant argue about quality. While neither shines in that catagory, the camaro has had less problems. It doesnt have a power antenna (broke on the TA), flip up headlights (broke on the TA), power windows (broke on the TA). Interior and exterior are subjective, not "one is better then the other", its what a person perfers. Now listen my children I said that the Firebird had a GTO "looking" front end. I didnt say they took the body panels off a GTO and put it on a Firebird. Look at the hood, headlights, fog lamps, the way the hood comes to a point. Other then the front end and the spoiler there the same car. That was the point guys<------------------------right there.
10-14-2005, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by chaman
Ohh Beautiful 69 Bird!!!
But for me personally, I like the '67/'68 better. I'd much rather have that purple '67 in those pics. Though the '69 nose has things about it that are better, the seams look really poor. From the way the hood meets the nose to the black rubber visible between the nose and the fenders. I think the '67/'68 just lines up better and that makes it look better over all (for me).
But since I'm thinking about it - "There the same ******* car." No, not really. You got Pontaic engine options in the 1st Gen and the Firebird 400 was 2 seconds quicker than the camaro, and 1 second quicker than the Mustang. Right out of the box it was the better choice for true enthusiasts. Visually they are simlar. More so than any other generation, but, DeLorean went to GM with the Banshee project and was shot down and told if he wanted a sports car, he could put out a version of the new F-Body platform chevy was using for their camaro. This was late in the design of the F-Body and the camaro was nearly to market. Pontiac had to scramble to make it to market in '67. And when you consider that, they did a damn good job. Got a car that looked different enough from it's twin to be distinct, and even managed to look better in the process!
The differences really came out in the 2nd Gen (which started too early, the 1st Gen was good enough to deserve more than 3 years. Kinda like the C2, which should have been produced for longer than it was too). The Trans Am had a lot of aerodynamic design incorporated into it. It was *more* aerodynamic than the Corvette! (and more than the camaro as well) In fact, some things that Pontiac wanted to do, aerodynamically, were rejected by chevy and since they're GM's golden child, Pontiac was handcuffed. So the 2nd Gen Trans Ams weren't as good as they could have been. Which is really amazing when you think about it.
And even in the 3rd Gen, when the edict came down that gutted the divisions and enforced corporate homogeny and Pontiac was forced to use the same engines that the camaro was, they pressed further in aerodynamics and still produced a better, and better looking vehicle. The '84 T/A had a .299 Cd. That is amazing. It's damn good even today, let alone in '84. (and not surprisingly, when the attempt to hit 300mph in a production body was made, the choice was an '88 Trans Am. Not a camaro, or anything else, because of it's aerodynamic assets)
I once had the opportunity to have an '88 IROC-Z next to my '88 GTA. Same year, top of the line of each divisions car. The IROC was an econobox next to my GTA. The interior sucked and looked like it was lifted out of a chevette. It didn't even have a VATS key (which my GTA did).
Sorry - I don't mean to hijack the thread and ramble on, I just kinda got on a roll there. lol
10-14-2005, 01:28 PM
#36
Originally Posted by 01SSDRVR
To each his own. Yes, I get more compliments in my SS. Sorry if its hard to stomach. Ive owned both so you cant argue about quality. While neither shines in that catagory, the camaro has had less problems. It doesnt have a power antenna (broke on the TA), flip up headlights (broke on the TA), power windows (broke on the TA). Interior and exterior are subjective, not "one is better then the other", its what a person perfers. Now listen my children I said that the Firebird had a GTO "looking" front end. I didnt say they took the body panels off a GTO and put it on a Firebird. Look at the hood, headlights, fog lamps, the way the hood comes to a point. Other then the front end and the spoiler there the same car. That was the point guys<------------------------right there.
They are THE SAME POS in both and if you know anything like you say you would know this.
If it would have power antenna it would have broken also. Oh no power antenna...there Pontiacs have been always with more standard equipment.... You just like the Camaro better....be honest because your points and reasons are
10-14-2005, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by chaman
Ohh Beautiful 69 Bird!!!
10-14-2005, 02:42 PM
#38
Originally Posted by chaman
So the power windows in you SS are better...mmmm
They are THE SAME POS in both and if you know anything like you say you would know this. If it would have power antenna it would have broken also. Oh no power antenna...there Pontiacs have been always with more standard equipment....
You just like the Camaro better....be honest because your points and reasons are
They are THE SAME POS in both and if you know anything like you say you would know this.
If it would have power antenna it would have broken also. Oh no power antenna...there Pontiacs have been always with more standard equipment.... You just like the Camaro better....be honest because your points and reasons are
10-14-2005, 03:35 PM
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Ah yes, the rolly eye. A favorite of so many when out of arguments.
I suppose with the idea that less amenities means less stuff to break and therefore better, means that a base Imprezza is "better" than the STi.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Drive around in an econobox because it's "less stuff to break". Hell, don't forget your power brakes and steering. Actually, the ultimate vehicle ever built is the bicycle. Fewest moving parts and the least amount of things to break.
Sure, it's slow, exposed to the elements, and not that pleasant to use over long distances, but hell, what does that matter? Luxuries are nothing more than potential problems afterall.
Well, while you may beleive that, the rest of the world says you're wrong. Amenities increase the value. (that's why you pay more for them - it costs more to make, and therefore is worth more to the manufacturer) (btw - notice that the Corvette has power everything? That is their top of the line product. So chevy must also think that a car with these things is better than one without. hmmm...)
Pontiac is "upscale" of chevy. Always has been. That's just the way it is. That means that their vehicles are placed higher in the heirarchy and contain more standard features, more amenities, and the associated higher value. So yes, they are superior in at least 1 very measurable way. I know you don't like that, but you don't have to like it, it changes nothing. Not even posting rolly eyes and smart *** comments in the forum for a car you don't like as much as the one you own.
Further, what is the purpose of the Firebird and Trans Am? To offer high performance with style, and some amount of luxury (amenities) at an afforable price. In the first generation they beat chevy in performance. As that is the primary purpose of the vehicle, that makes it superior. In the 2nd Generation they again beat chevy in power, and all around performance, along with having much better (and smarter) use of aerodynamics, not to mention style that was significantly better (Hollywood could have used camaros for blockbusters - but didn't). Once again, following the purpose of the vehicle to a higher extent, i.e. - superior. In the 3rd Gen, the performance of both lines had practically been all but removed, but that applied to even the Corvette, unfortunately, so things had to be viewed in an even more relative light. Yet again, forced into the constraints of a small, weak engine, Pontiac flexed some engineering muscle and made their car more sleek, while still having more and better style. They also continued to pack in as many features as they could. In '88, the top of the line models were the IROC-Z and the GTA. The GTA had power locks, windows, steering, and brakes, with a full set of guages including oil pressure, battery, and temp, along with stylish tach and speedo units, a sports style T handle shifter, incredibly comfortable power seats (6-way power seats) with power lumbar support, a Blaupunkt sound system, steering wheel controls for the stereo, and to top it all off, a Vehicle Anti Theft System (VATS) key. The IROC had chinsey manual seats, 2 giant cheap *** guages for tach and speedo, a mass of idiot lights, a top thumb button shifter, no steering wheel stereo controls, and no VATS key. It was less well optioned than a Formula, which itself is inferior to a Trans Am (it's beneath it in the heirarchy and the GTA is the "top of the line", which means "best")
Come the 4th Gen and once again chevy plays catch up in a lot of ways and copies much of what Pontiac had done. However, Pontiac was not about to rest on their laurels. In the process of keeping the Firebird better looking (more style), they gave it larger fenders. This makes it easier to mount wider rubber. Sure, you could always hammer, fender roll, or mini-tub a camaro, but you don't have to do that to get extreme with the Firebird. And if you do, you still have more room. This means it's potential out of the box is higher. So once again it has more features, more style, and more potential.
Really, any which way you slice it, it is the superior vechicle. Call it a "package" or whatnot if you will, but the fact is, in the same way that an ss is superior to a z28 (with each being basically a package level), so too is the T/A the superior overall package.
And of course, we could argue that since SLP did the ss, it's counterpart would actually be the Firehawk, not WS6 T/A, and that would make the highest factory camaro the z28, which widens the gap.
Basially I'd much rather pull serious laptimes in a Ferrari Enzo than in an Aerial Atom, because one is a cheap go-kart, the other is simply a superior vehicle.
I suppose with the idea that less amenities means less stuff to break and therefore better, means that a base Imprezza is "better" than the STi.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Drive around in an econobox because it's "less stuff to break". Hell, don't forget your power brakes and steering. Actually, the ultimate vehicle ever built is the bicycle. Fewest moving parts and the least amount of things to break.
Sure, it's slow, exposed to the elements, and not that pleasant to use over long distances, but hell, what does that matter? Luxuries are nothing more than potential problems afterall.
Well, while you may beleive that, the rest of the world says you're wrong. Amenities increase the value. (that's why you pay more for them - it costs more to make, and therefore is worth more to the manufacturer) (btw - notice that the Corvette has power everything? That is their top of the line product. So chevy must also think that a car with these things is better than one without. hmmm...)
Pontiac is "upscale" of chevy. Always has been. That's just the way it is. That means that their vehicles are placed higher in the heirarchy and contain more standard features, more amenities, and the associated higher value. So yes, they are superior in at least 1 very measurable way. I know you don't like that, but you don't have to like it, it changes nothing. Not even posting rolly eyes and smart *** comments in the forum for a car you don't like as much as the one you own.
Further, what is the purpose of the Firebird and Trans Am? To offer high performance with style, and some amount of luxury (amenities) at an afforable price. In the first generation they beat chevy in performance. As that is the primary purpose of the vehicle, that makes it superior. In the 2nd Generation they again beat chevy in power, and all around performance, along with having much better (and smarter) use of aerodynamics, not to mention style that was significantly better (Hollywood could have used camaros for blockbusters - but didn't). Once again, following the purpose of the vehicle to a higher extent, i.e. - superior. In the 3rd Gen, the performance of both lines had practically been all but removed, but that applied to even the Corvette, unfortunately, so things had to be viewed in an even more relative light. Yet again, forced into the constraints of a small, weak engine, Pontiac flexed some engineering muscle and made their car more sleek, while still having more and better style. They also continued to pack in as many features as they could. In '88, the top of the line models were the IROC-Z and the GTA. The GTA had power locks, windows, steering, and brakes, with a full set of guages including oil pressure, battery, and temp, along with stylish tach and speedo units, a sports style T handle shifter, incredibly comfortable power seats (6-way power seats) with power lumbar support, a Blaupunkt sound system, steering wheel controls for the stereo, and to top it all off, a Vehicle Anti Theft System (VATS) key. The IROC had chinsey manual seats, 2 giant cheap *** guages for tach and speedo, a mass of idiot lights, a top thumb button shifter, no steering wheel stereo controls, and no VATS key. It was less well optioned than a Formula, which itself is inferior to a Trans Am (it's beneath it in the heirarchy and the GTA is the "top of the line", which means "best")
Come the 4th Gen and once again chevy plays catch up in a lot of ways and copies much of what Pontiac had done. However, Pontiac was not about to rest on their laurels. In the process of keeping the Firebird better looking (more style), they gave it larger fenders. This makes it easier to mount wider rubber. Sure, you could always hammer, fender roll, or mini-tub a camaro, but you don't have to do that to get extreme with the Firebird. And if you do, you still have more room. This means it's potential out of the box is higher. So once again it has more features, more style, and more potential.
Really, any which way you slice it, it is the superior vechicle. Call it a "package" or whatnot if you will, but the fact is, in the same way that an ss is superior to a z28 (with each being basically a package level), so too is the T/A the superior overall package.
And of course, we could argue that since SLP did the ss, it's counterpart would actually be the Firehawk, not WS6 T/A, and that would make the highest factory camaro the z28, which widens the gap.
Basially I'd much rather pull serious laptimes in a Ferrari Enzo than in an Aerial Atom, because one is a cheap go-kart, the other is simply a superior vehicle.
10-14-2005, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HPP
Ah yes, the rolly eye. A favorite of so many when out of arguments.
I suppose with the idea that less amenities means less stuff to break and therefore better, means that a base Imprezza is "better" than the STi.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Drive around in an econobox because it's "less stuff to break". Hell, don't forget your power brakes and steering. Actually, the ultimate vehicle ever built is the bicycle. Fewest moving parts and the least amount of things to break.
Sure, it's slow, exposed to the elements, and not that pleasant to use over long distances, but hell, what does that matter? Luxuries are nothing more than potential problems afterall.
Well, while you may beleive that, the rest of the world says you're wrong. Amenities increase the value. (that's why you pay more for them - it costs more to make, and therefore is worth more to the manufacturer) (btw - notice that the Corvette has power everything? That is their top of the line product. So chevy must also think that a car with these things is better than one without. hmmm...)
Pontiac is "upscale" of chevy. Always has been. That's just the way it is. That means that their vehicles are placed higher in the heirarchy and contain more standard features, more amenities, and the associated higher value. So yes, they are superior in at least 1 very measurable way. I know you don't like that, but you don't have to like it, it changes nothing. Not even posting rolly eyes and smart *** comments in the forum for a car you don't like as much as the one you own.
Further, what is the purpose of the Firebird and Trans Am? To offer high performance with style, and some amount of luxury (amenities) at an afforable price. In the first generation they beat chevy in performance. As that is the primary purpose of the vehicle, that makes it superior. In the 2nd Generation they again beat chevy in power, and all around performance, along with having much better (and smarter) use of aerodynamics, not to mention style that was significantly better (Hollywood could have used camaros for blockbusters - but didn't). Once again, following the purpose of the vehicle to a higher extent, i.e. - superior. In the 3rd Gen, the performance of both lines had practically been all but removed, but that applied to even the Corvette, unfortunately, so things had to be viewed in an even more relative light. Yet again, forced into the constraints of a small, weak engine, Pontiac flexed some engineering muscle and made their car more sleek, while still having more and better style. They also continued to pack in as many features as they could. In '88, the top of the line models were the IROC-Z and the GTA. The GTA had power locks, windows, steering, and brakes, with a full set of guages including oil pressure, battery, and temp, along with stylish tach and speedo units, a sports style T handle shifter, incredibly comfortable power seats (6-way power seats) with power lumbar support, a Blaupunkt sound system, steering wheel controls for the stereo, and to top it all off, a Vehicle Anti Theft System (VATS) key. The IROC had chinsey manual seats, 2 giant cheap *** guages for tach and speedo, a mass of idiot lights, a top thumb button shifter, no steering wheel stereo controls, and no VATS key. It was less well optioned than a Formula, which itself is inferior to a Trans Am (it's beneath it in the heirarchy and the GTA is the "top of the line", which means "best")
Come the 4th Gen and once again chevy plays catch up in a lot of ways and copies much of what Pontiac had done. However, Pontiac was not about to rest on their laurels. In the process of keeping the Firebird better looking (more style), they gave it larger fenders. This makes it easier to mount wider rubber. Sure, you could always hammer, fender roll, or mini-tub a camaro, but you don't have to do that to get extreme with the Firebird. And if you do, you still have more room. This means it's potential out of the box is higher. So once again it has more features, more style, and more potential.
Really, any which way you slice it, it is the superior vechicle. Call it a "package" or whatnot if you will, but the fact is, in the same way that an ss is superior to a z28 (with each being basically a package level), so too is the T/A the superior overall package.
And of course, we could argue that since SLP did the ss, it's counterpart would actually be the Firehawk, not WS6 T/A, and that would make the highest factory camaro the z28, which widens the gap.
Basially I'd much rather pull serious laptimes in a Ferrari Enzo than in an Aerial Atom, because one is a cheap go-kart, the other is simply a superior vehicle.
I suppose with the idea that less amenities means less stuff to break and therefore better, means that a base Imprezza is "better" than the STi.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Drive around in an econobox because it's "less stuff to break". Hell, don't forget your power brakes and steering. Actually, the ultimate vehicle ever built is the bicycle. Fewest moving parts and the least amount of things to break.
Sure, it's slow, exposed to the elements, and not that pleasant to use over long distances, but hell, what does that matter? Luxuries are nothing more than potential problems afterall.
Well, while you may beleive that, the rest of the world says you're wrong. Amenities increase the value. (that's why you pay more for them - it costs more to make, and therefore is worth more to the manufacturer) (btw - notice that the Corvette has power everything? That is their top of the line product. So chevy must also think that a car with these things is better than one without. hmmm...)
Pontiac is "upscale" of chevy. Always has been. That's just the way it is. That means that their vehicles are placed higher in the heirarchy and contain more standard features, more amenities, and the associated higher value. So yes, they are superior in at least 1 very measurable way. I know you don't like that, but you don't have to like it, it changes nothing. Not even posting rolly eyes and smart *** comments in the forum for a car you don't like as much as the one you own.
Further, what is the purpose of the Firebird and Trans Am? To offer high performance with style, and some amount of luxury (amenities) at an afforable price. In the first generation they beat chevy in performance. As that is the primary purpose of the vehicle, that makes it superior. In the 2nd Generation they again beat chevy in power, and all around performance, along with having much better (and smarter) use of aerodynamics, not to mention style that was significantly better (Hollywood could have used camaros for blockbusters - but didn't). Once again, following the purpose of the vehicle to a higher extent, i.e. - superior. In the 3rd Gen, the performance of both lines had practically been all but removed, but that applied to even the Corvette, unfortunately, so things had to be viewed in an even more relative light. Yet again, forced into the constraints of a small, weak engine, Pontiac flexed some engineering muscle and made their car more sleek, while still having more and better style. They also continued to pack in as many features as they could. In '88, the top of the line models were the IROC-Z and the GTA. The GTA had power locks, windows, steering, and brakes, with a full set of guages including oil pressure, battery, and temp, along with stylish tach and speedo units, a sports style T handle shifter, incredibly comfortable power seats (6-way power seats) with power lumbar support, a Blaupunkt sound system, steering wheel controls for the stereo, and to top it all off, a Vehicle Anti Theft System (VATS) key. The IROC had chinsey manual seats, 2 giant cheap *** guages for tach and speedo, a mass of idiot lights, a top thumb button shifter, no steering wheel stereo controls, and no VATS key. It was less well optioned than a Formula, which itself is inferior to a Trans Am (it's beneath it in the heirarchy and the GTA is the "top of the line", which means "best")
Come the 4th Gen and once again chevy plays catch up in a lot of ways and copies much of what Pontiac had done. However, Pontiac was not about to rest on their laurels. In the process of keeping the Firebird better looking (more style), they gave it larger fenders. This makes it easier to mount wider rubber. Sure, you could always hammer, fender roll, or mini-tub a camaro, but you don't have to do that to get extreme with the Firebird. And if you do, you still have more room. This means it's potential out of the box is higher. So once again it has more features, more style, and more potential.
Really, any which way you slice it, it is the superior vechicle. Call it a "package" or whatnot if you will, but the fact is, in the same way that an ss is superior to a z28 (with each being basically a package level), so too is the T/A the superior overall package.
And of course, we could argue that since SLP did the ss, it's counterpart would actually be the Firehawk, not WS6 T/A, and that would make the highest factory camaro the z28, which widens the gap.
Basially I'd much rather pull serious laptimes in a Ferrari Enzo than in an Aerial Atom, because one is a cheap go-kart, the other is simply a superior vehicle.