ChiefIronHorse

Tell me josey, how many other vehicles can you purchase for around 33k that produces approximately 350HP? Can you give me 8 to 10 vehicles. And I'm refering to current vehicles. Not the out dated f bodies. Let's say 2k within 33k. And within let's say 30HP within 350HP. So give me a list (8 - 10) of vehicles between 31k and 35k that produce between 320HP and 380HP. Since they're so "many better" platforms to purchase, I'm sure this won't be a problem for you.

BigPlanTransAm

GTO's are really just SS's and WS6's with a different, but uglier, body.and if youre looking for bang for the buck, there are plenty of used F-bodies out there so if you dont need the bling of a brand new body style, the used f-bod has a much better hp/$$ ratio for(basically)the same car.

DANSLS1GTO

Is this still going on? THE F-BODY AND GTO ARE DIFFERENT CARS. NOBODY SHOULD BE COMPARING THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE DIFFERENT INTENTIONS.
Sheesh.
Dan

ChiefIronHorse

I don't know about anybody else but I wouldn't want to buy or inherit anybody elses problems. Most of the f body vehicle I know have been rung through the ringer. Unless I know the previous owner a vehicle, then I'll do better buying new. So if you're looking for bang for the buck, there is the new GTO, not used. At least if something goes wrong with the GTO brand new, then you won't have that, "I wonder if I bought a lemon?" in the back of your mind.

GTA91

iTrader: (14)

Come on people, I can't believe what I'm reading. I could type for days on this ebjecy, so I'll just throw in my quick $.02


1) The GTO is NOT a camaro/firebird replacement.... its not even a similar car except for its motor/tranny... was the '67 GTO and '67 Firebird similar?? NO, just their drivetrains.

2) Is the GTO over priced?? No way... its lists about the same as a loaded '02 WS6 TA... and it does almost everything that car would do plus you can actually stand to sit in it and drive it all day long and not have to worry about every damn cop pulling you over b/c your car "looks" fast.

3) Is the stlying not good (flashy) enough? That is definatly an opinion, but the original GTO's were not flashy and were sublte midsize family cars with big motors from their fullsize siblings.... pretty much the same as the '04 Goat.

4) Did GM kill the fbody? yes

5) Does GM make any other rear drive car that is practical? Not really.

6) What makes the GTO so damn horrible? Not really anything... just ppl still bitter about the fbody's demise trying to give it a bad name. And believe me, I'm just as pissed as anyone else about the fbody (I have one), but I absolutely love the new GTO and I'm getting mine this weekend!!!


*Its not a fbody, its not a mustang, its not some subcompact import with a turbo, not a european touring sedan, not a luxury sedan, its not like anything else..... its the PONTIAC GTO. I think this car actually deserves the campaign ad that reads something like this.... "You wouldn't understand, its a GTO thing."

LOL

Peace, I'm outta here!

TriShield

Each car has its pros and cons, and each person has their preferences.

Deep down, I like both of them, and I like fast muscle cars in general no matter which of the Big Three makes them.

JBGRAYTA

Well just so happens I went to the Pontiac dealer today. I saw a black and a red GTO in front of the showroom. I was bored, wondering if they'd let me test drive one(they didn't). As I moved closer, the black one was not a GTO but a Bonneville GXP with the Northstar v8. The red one was an actual GTO. Handsome car, I would like one when I turn 40. Oh yeah, the sticker tag on the GXP was just $2k short of the GTO's sticker price(excluding the dealer markup).
I drove my T/A by, everybody was looking at it, and certainly no one was laughing at it. In fact, I don't think I have ever seen ANYONE laugh at my car. They are saving their laughs for the kids in the riced out civics.
AS for the GTO being better on the road course, I don't think very many people go on these twisty tracks, but a lot do like to go fast in a straight line, and attract notice.
It depends on lifestyle, and with just my wife and I, we don't need two seats in the back, four doors, whatever. I just like to laugh at the people who live alone or with 1 other person who drives an SUV or a four door sedan.

JoSeY

I'm not going to fight w/you....sorry to have pissed you off but honestly there are some cars that are dang near that high of hp for maybe a couple thousand less....

Frost7

Reading the criticism here and elsewhere I think I see the whole problem everyone has with the GTO. It's not the GTO itself, but rather the GTO replacing the Firebirds that irks people. All I have to say is if you don't like the F-body being dead (which I don't, being the third and last owner of my lovely '97 WS6) don't bitch about the GTO, bitch about GM's stupidity in marketing and maintaining the F-bodies. GM complained about the Mustang outselling the Camaro and Firebird. Does anyone dispute the Camaro and Firebird are better punch for punch? Not unless they don't know what they're talking about. BUT, the Mustang enjoys Ford pushing it, and so it's in the public eye and it sells. GM just had the F-bodies kinda hanging there. No ad campaign, no marketing, no nothing. I'm frankly surprised they continued selling as well as they did given the biggest advertisement was seeing one on the road or word of mouth. And THAT is why the F-body died. Not because it was too sporty looking or appealed to the wrong crowd or was overpriced, but because it was sporty, it appealed to a crowd that's has plenty of potential buyers at its current price, but simply when they thought of what car to buy next, the lack of marketing didn't even place a Camaro or a Firebird in their heads. NEGLIGENCE killed the F-body.

That said, while I do respect the GTO, I have to take issue with the fact that it's no replacement for the Firebird. It's so different I could see both cars coexisting and having their own market, they're so different. So, while I will likely never buy a GTO for the simple fact that it does not appeal to me very much, at the same time I won't criticize it because it doesn't look that bad, it has great power, it handles well, and it's overall very nicely designed. Love it or hate it, it's not a new Firebird, it's just filling the gap in Pontiac's line for a powerful RWD V8, and it deserves a look as what it is: a new Pontiac car, and a damn fine one at that. It is everything it was designed to be, nothing more, nothing less.

Frost7

Huh. Looking at the various riceboy cars and then looking at the various F-bodies, I see nothing to compare. You call the styling ricey and say the F-bodies are laughed at around the world. I say you're giving a personal opinion and trying to legitimize it with a blanket statement that has little if any basis in fact. I have seen nothing but respect for the F-bodies, offering very sleek and aggressive appearances and performance to match, and a price that's FAR below what you'd pay for some European sportscar. If nothing else, they're missed by the competition as cool and powerful opponents. The only thing I've ever seen the F-bodies ridiculed over is the cheap plastic interior trim and too much chassis flex, both of which could have been easily fixed had the same kind of forward-thinking minds that turned the somewhat rickety C4 into the awesome BMW and Porsche eating C5 been turned loose on F-body design.

DANSLS1GTO

I don't want to argue with you either - but what RWD car can you get with 'dang near that high of hp for maybe a couple thousand less'? I've looked for that car and can't find it...
Dan

ActionJack

Unless you HAVE TO HAVE a GM, there are others that are faster and sportier. The Cobra SVT is kicking dirt in the General's eyes with the SVT. 390 HP Supercharged (and who gives a **** if it is only 330 HP w/out a SC). It is still stomping on everything GM has for sale except maybe a 45k+ Vette.

Lutz is a Putz. The GTO is a nice looking Holden and if GM was smart they will bring the Australian version over. But the GTO (Holden) is no comparison to the Camaro/Firebird. The GTO would be better to stay a Holden and get rid of it's fake badge IMHO.

I hate how this GTO is compared with the F-Body.

Motortrend spoke well of the Cobra SVT in this article;
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...ain/index.html
and mentioned how the F-Body had it's role to play.

IMO Lutz is a Putz and is trying to compete with Euro companies globally and labelling the Holden here in the USA the GTO to play on heart strings to get suckers to think they are buying American muscle.

Qoute from above artcile (Ilove this):
"Last year's 320-hp SVT Mustang Cobra was long overdue for a power increase-the Camaro SS and Trans Am WS6 routinely embarrassed the Cobra to 60 mph and through the quarter mile. Problem addressed: Try a 390-hp V-8 (comparable thrust to the limited-edition Cobra R's), with a supercharger, six-speed manual gearbox, and extensive driveline and chassis upgrades. Don't call it a revolution-even the body modifications are subtle. But pity the Camaro SS driver who mistakes the '03 SVT Cobra for one of the old models. All this and still priced around $35,000? Sounds like that power payback has finally arrived."

And, DANSLS1GTO I do not mean to bash the GTO because I like it for what it is. I even went to the showroom to check it out and have considered it as a future family vehicle. But, honestly it does not compare to the F-Body and Mustang when it come to 2 door coupe performance as an American Muscle car. It has a more 'mature' feel with a nicer interior and straight up seating and 4 door possibilities and a drivetrain that will work well with AWD. And, as you can tell with my writing, I feel Lutz has played us for fools with the GTO badge on a Holden. Not disrespect to you.

TriShield

Your definition of sporty is straight line punch, and the SVT Cobra is the car for that. It's a shame it's a punishing vehicle to drive, insane to insure, and not good for much other than drag racing.

I know, because I considered buying one and drove quite a few as well as pretty much every other vehicle in the $30-$35k bracket.

Only two of them have come close to the new GTO in my heart, the BMW 330Ci and Mazda RX-8.

TriShield

Your opinion is laughably silly and short-sighted.

I'm sure you'll really howl in a few years when GM brings out a new Camaro on an Australian chassis (The upcoming ZETA platform is engineered by GM's Australian boys).

The GTO has always been a rebadged GM car. In fact most muscle cars short of the ponies have ALWAYS been rebadge jobs of existing products.

A few examples,

GTO = rebadged Tempest, Le Mans, Ventura, and Monaro

442 = rebadged Cutlass and Cutlass Calais

Gran Sport/GSX = rebadged Skylark

and there's so very many more!

By your definition, they're all "fake".

DANSLS1GTO

No disrespect taken. Nothing anybody else says takes the silly grin off of my face when I think about going out to drive, and the times I just go out to drive, because being in my car is the best stress relief (next to sex of course). I would have bought a Monaro if it was brought over as that. I could care less about the car being a GM, having the GTO name and what that signifies, or who it offends. I love this car.
That being said - it's not an f-body. It's not got the same intention as an f-body. It sucks that because the f-body was cancelled, and this car has the same engine, that the continual comparison is made.
Dan

svede1212

iTrader: (3)

hmmmm, me thinks the f-bod crowd (and stangs, all "pony" cars not muscle cars) were suckered into buying cars they thought were "American muscle". last time i checked the only truely "American" car was the $100,000 Hummer and even that was only 98%. parts come from all over the world. "foreign" cars are assembled here. and for god's sake it's just a badge, first slapped on a tempest/le mans, which without the gto option was quite a lame car. if anyone should be insulted it's ferrari not some old beatle's fan pining for his youth.

ActionJack

Well it appears the consensus is that the GTO is more like a BMW 3 series. I would agree.

The 'pony' cars of today being drag cars.... that is where they started. So it should go without saying.

The new platform for 2006... the Camaro(?) still an unknown. We will have to see and then you MAY have the last laugh. But you are right the Tempest was rebadged and with a bigger engine for street and drag racing. NOT touring the country, that is why there is the BMW 3 series and Holden Monaro. And GTO was exclusive to cars like Ferrari at that time. So I can see the Ferrari comparison.

And with Big Business exporting jobs and the mass rush to get into countries with temporary Non Tariff Mandates it is not surprising that there is NO USA vehicle any longer. That means instead of a GTO it will make more scense for me to get an Audi S4 (**** is kicks sand in the face of any BMW 3 series and Mazda Rx-8) and has a drivetrain and engineering superior to any other in it's category. Can't wait to get the 4 motion AWD and 0 to 60 in 4.6 sec plus a world winning chasis and luxury ride.

But, I will say it again, the GTO is a nice ride. I prefer to think of it as a Holden. Lutz is definately a Putz (probably a spineless little man that would **** his pants in the site of danger). Also, the GTO has potential to be a good drag car if wheel hop and weight are dealt with but it is not quieting the other quick inexpensive cars beating it in 0 to 60 or 1/4 mile. Look at not only the Cobra but the WRX STi and the EVO VIII and even the forester.

The Trans Am WS6, even though made in Canada, had a Continuous history from it's inception and it left on the Best of notes at the Top of it's class. This should not be tarnished in a completely unfitting comparison with a GTO.

TriShield

The original six cylinder Mustang founded the pony car niche, and it was not an immediate hit for being a ferocious drag car. It was a hit for its style and how much fun it was to drive.


It's only unknown what the Chevrolet coupe/convertible on the platform will be, it is known that the foundation is Australian engineered.


I like to take comfortable road trips in my Grand National and cruise with friends. In fact I drive it to the Woodward Dream Cruise in Detroit every year from South Dakota. And we all know how much big, comfy, V6 GNs suck at drag racing!


Wow, that makes so much sense.

I'll take the US powered GTO from a US based company and pocket the $14,000 difference thanks.


He flies an ex Libyan air force fighter jet in his free time. I'd put my money on his constitution before yours.


It is a good drag car, and a good road racer. Aussies have been demonstrating that since 2001.

Since you seem to live your life a quarter mile at a time, you should also note that the STi and EVO have been beating F-bodies and other greater cars in acceleration, and they aren't even engineered as drag racers. Oh noes!



RIP Firebird.

Your rep has already been thoroughly tarnished for poor materials, subpar fit and finish, high prices and for losing the pony car war to the Ford Mustang.

TriShield

Yeah, the car totally blows at drag racing.

http://www.bmrfabrication.com/ProjectGTO.wmv

ActionJack

Thanks for wasting a minute of my day. Besides, I never said the GTO blows at drag racing. Read the posts through. I said it will hop and is heavy. Read up on the cars and you Will learn this to be truth. Honestly, neither response is worth a reply but you may learn something.

Here are some drag times to consider (11.44 is good but bring on the real stuff):

Blue Camaro 4 th gen

7 sec stang

The GTO is Holden

another LS1 breaking the 10 sec


Enjoy the Vids......LOL




Also, we all know Lutz is a Putz. Who gives a **** if he flies a jet. TriShield, you have not made a real point in your response. Try reading some more.