Any heating/brake fade issues with Fbodies?
10-16-2010, 02:59 AM
#21
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Good pads, good lines, and good fluid.
DO NOT!!! waste your money on slotted or drilled rotors, unless it's got brembo (or equal) on it and it's of the the two piece variety $$$$$$.
I've gone through all of them, power slot, DBA, ATE, and any other less than 250 a pair rotor set thats out there. They all lasted just as long, or short depending on how you look at it, as a set of 35$ a piece pepboys specials. No slots, no holes, just plain. I usually get three track weekends before they start to show heat cracks then by the middle of the fourth weekend they're toast.
I've got well over 2500 track miles on stock LS1 calipers, pepboy rotors, carbotech XP-12 front and XP-10 rear and a set of earl lines. The biggest help was Alan Blane cooling ducts, but your not at that point on the slippery slope. I use ATE superblue and bleed the system every two events.
So if you only do a few track days a year and you just go out for the hell of it. Get some good pads (Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech XP-8) for the front and the best parts store rear pad you can find. Same goes for the rotors, just what they have at NAPA or Advanced or anyplace that has a warranty. Get some braided lines, they help on the street so they're worth it. Get some ATE super blue or similar fluid. Bleed the whole system and have fun. If you start pushing hard enough you'll soon learn what pad knock back is and how much fun it can be...
DO NOT!!! waste your money on slotted or drilled rotors, unless it's got brembo (or equal) on it and it's of the the two piece variety $$$$$$.
I've gone through all of them, power slot, DBA, ATE, and any other less than 250 a pair rotor set thats out there. They all lasted just as long, or short depending on how you look at it, as a set of 35$ a piece pepboys specials. No slots, no holes, just plain. I usually get three track weekends before they start to show heat cracks then by the middle of the fourth weekend they're toast.
I've got well over 2500 track miles on stock LS1 calipers, pepboy rotors, carbotech XP-12 front and XP-10 rear and a set of earl lines. The biggest help was Alan Blane cooling ducts, but your not at that point on the slippery slope. I use ATE superblue and bleed the system every two events.
So if you only do a few track days a year and you just go out for the hell of it. Get some good pads (Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech XP-8) for the front and the best parts store rear pad you can find. Same goes for the rotors, just what they have at NAPA or Advanced or anyplace that has a warranty. Get some braided lines, they help on the street so they're worth it. Get some ATE super blue or similar fluid. Bleed the whole system and have fun. If you start pushing hard enough you'll soon learn what pad knock back is and how much fun it can be...
10-16-2010, 05:24 PM
#22
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Slotted rotors help get rid of gasses, If you use a bigger rotor, 4pot Wilwoods, Hawk HP Plus pads or EBC Yellowstuff pads, a quality Dot4 brake fluid you won't even have to think about brake fade, cause it won't happen.
On the street you would need to be aware that they do need a little heat to pull up sharply which they won't do when stone cold.
When you road race, you like me, want the car to stop, not crash, my mind needs to be thinking of whats happening around me, not whether i'll stop or not.
Your cars expensive, don't cut corners & then HOPE. Do it once, do it right.
On the street you would need to be aware that they do need a little heat to pull up sharply which they won't do when stone cold.
When you road race, you like me, want the car to stop, not crash, my mind needs to be thinking of whats happening around me, not whether i'll stop or not.
Your cars expensive, don't cut corners & then HOPE. Do it once, do it right.
10-16-2010, 10:31 PM
#23
Slotted rotors help get rid of gasses, If you use a bigger rotor, 4pot Wilwoods, Hawk HP Plus pads or EBC Yellowstuff pads, a quality Dot4 brake fluid you won't even have to think about brake fade, cause it won't happen.
On the street you would need to be aware that they do need a little heat to pull up sharply which they won't do when stone cold.
When you road race, you like me, want the car to stop, not crash, my mind needs to be thinking of whats happening around me, not whether i'll stop or not.
Your cars expensive, don't cut corners & then HOPE. Do it once, do it right.
On the street you would need to be aware that they do need a little heat to pull up sharply which they won't do when stone cold.
When you road race, you like me, want the car to stop, not crash, my mind needs to be thinking of whats happening around me, not whether i'll stop or not.
Your cars expensive, don't cut corners & then HOPE. Do it once, do it right.
With all due respect ... wrong!
Modern adhesives don't off-gas like like they did 10 or 15 years ago. So the layer of "gassing" is all but a thing of the past. Brembo blanks are teh hot ticket from what I gather. Good performance and good metallurgy makes them last a long time.
Now, before the typical "Why do I see drilled rotors on race cars?" response, remember, those brakes only have to last 500 miles ... the holes are for reduced unsprung weight, not gassing pads.
HP Plus pads are anything but a track pad. I run them on the street in my CTS-V. And the one time I ran them on a road course in the V, the brakes went to mush about 1/2 way through the session. Carbotech XP10s are in my race car.
DOT4 fluid? Are you kidding? DOT 5.1 at the VERY least.
And as long as we're doing it right the first time ... Castrol SRF fluid or nothing for me.
Some folks whine and complain about the cost and at $80/litre it is pricey. BUt I've had the same fluid in my race car since 2006 when I put it on the track and have never ... NEVER had to bleed the system since.
That's thirty races a year and two regional chanpionships ... not a single system flush.
When I change pads, I open the bleeder and let the fluid drain out when I push the pistons in, but that's the ONLY bleed I do.
So, in 5 seasons I've used about $160 in brake fluid. $35/year is CHEAP!
10-16-2010, 11:49 PM
#24
TECH Fanatic
Did they even have slotted rotters 10/15 yrs ago, it's not the adhesive, it's the material of the pad!!!!
And yes! they are designed to alleviate gasses! Why the hell else slot them!
You didn't say why a street car 'which is what his & mine are' shouldn't use drilled rotors for racing! Do you even know?
Nothing wrong with DOT 4 MATEY we are not full time race-cars, get with the program!
Have used the pads with no issues what so ever, so you brake often 'don't you like speed'?
The guys using his street car for a fun time, he doesn't need your overly 'i'm a big time race driver listen to me attitude'.
And yes! they are designed to alleviate gasses! Why the hell else slot them!
You didn't say why a street car 'which is what his & mine are' shouldn't use drilled rotors for racing! Do you even know?
Nothing wrong with DOT 4 MATEY we are not full time race-cars, get with the program!
Have used the pads with no issues what so ever, so you brake often 'don't you like speed'?
The guys using his street car for a fun time, he doesn't need your overly 'i'm a big time race driver listen to me attitude'.
Last edited by ls1 1990 VN; 10-17-2010 at 01:24 AM.
10-17-2010, 01:58 AM
#25
My "attitude" is identifying bad information for people taking a heavy pig of a car to a track that is a brake eater.
It's not generic internet bullshit like, "here's the real way".
The OP specifically discussed brake fade when going to a track ... not the street. That's the program.
DOT 4 is fine for anything like semi-aggressive street driving ... period.
For track applications ... how did you say it ...
... safety is paramount.
Now ... lets address rotors and off-gassing thing ...
I'm sure end mills were around 15 years ago. And I recall vividly slotted and drilled rotors on racing application cars. And like painting a white stripe down the center of the hood became all teh rage on the street, slots and holes became fashionable at the average Joe street level.
Problem was, the metallurgy wasn't the same. At the price point you and I can afford, slotted and drilled rotors were just pre-cracked driveway jewelry.
Finally, if off-gassing was a HUGE issue, why are there no slotted and drilled flywheels? A clutch disc and brake pad are basically the same thing ...
It's not generic internet bullshit like, "here's the real way".
The OP specifically discussed brake fade when going to a track ... not the street. That's the program.
DOT 4 is fine for anything like semi-aggressive street driving ... period.
For track applications ... how did you say it ...
When you road race, you like me, want the car to stop, not crash, my mind needs to be thinking of whats happening around me, not whether i'll stop or not.
Now ... lets address rotors and off-gassing thing ...
I'm sure end mills were around 15 years ago. And I recall vividly slotted and drilled rotors on racing application cars. And like painting a white stripe down the center of the hood became all teh rage on the street, slots and holes became fashionable at the average Joe street level.
Problem was, the metallurgy wasn't the same. At the price point you and I can afford, slotted and drilled rotors were just pre-cracked driveway jewelry.
Finally, if off-gassing was a HUGE issue, why are there no slotted and drilled flywheels? A clutch disc and brake pad are basically the same thing ...
10-17-2010, 02:56 AM
#26
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Physics and heat transfer. That's the only thing your brakes care about. No slots or holes or what ever the hell else makes them cool in photos.
To the original poster, I understand you just want to putt around with your car. The thing you have to remember is it's got close to 300 rwhp and weighs close to 3800 pounds if you haven't taken anything out of it. So that being said, you have a straight section of track, you're going to generate some momentum. Well you have to stop that pig at the end of it don't you? And you want it to stop right? Well at the least it's going to take, in my opinion, and I'm nobody really.
Braided lines to replace the old rubber crap you have on there. Some Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech Xp-08 pads in the front. The rears aren't going to see much abuse so don't worry about them too much if they're still thick. ATE super blue fluid AT THE LEAST!! That DOT 4 crap you see at autozone is worth nothing. My brother has a Volvo 244 and he has boiled the DOT 4 stuff more times than I can count. Save the front pads your using now and just swap them out after the track session...
To the original poster, I understand you just want to putt around with your car. The thing you have to remember is it's got close to 300 rwhp and weighs close to 3800 pounds if you haven't taken anything out of it. So that being said, you have a straight section of track, you're going to generate some momentum. Well you have to stop that pig at the end of it don't you? And you want it to stop right? Well at the least it's going to take, in my opinion, and I'm nobody really.
Braided lines to replace the old rubber crap you have on there. Some Hawk HT-10 or Carbotech Xp-08 pads in the front. The rears aren't going to see much abuse so don't worry about them too much if they're still thick. ATE super blue fluid AT THE LEAST!! That DOT 4 crap you see at autozone is worth nothing. My brother has a Volvo 244 and he has boiled the DOT 4 stuff more times than I can count. Save the front pads your using now and just swap them out after the track session...
10-18-2010, 12:04 AM
#27
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My Commodore weights 3100lbs, race fully upholstered, on our back straight i reach 230km/ 143mph & gradually start to apply brake at the 180mtr/196yd marker for a 2nd gear hairpin, so am on brake hard for 100mtrs/109yds.
The front straight i reach 210km/130mph & have to start braking for a r/h sweeper into a Chicane then a 3rd gear hard R/H.
I have never had brake issues
The front straight i reach 210km/130mph & have to start braking for a r/h sweeper into a Chicane then a 3rd gear hard R/H.
I have never had brake issues
10-18-2010, 02:08 AM
#28
My Commodore weights 3100lbs, race fully upholstered, on our back straight i reach 230km/ 143mph & gradually start to apply brake at the 180mtr/196yd marker for a 2nd gear hairpin, so am on brake hard for 100mtrs/109yds.
The front straight i reach 210km/130mph & have to start braking for a r/h sweeper into a Chicane then a 3rd gear hard R/H.
I have never had brake issues
The front straight i reach 210km/130mph & have to start braking for a r/h sweeper into a Chicane then a 3rd gear hard R/H.
I have never had brake issues
Shuffle 400lbs onto the nose and adjust the rear brake bias accordingly and a LOT of added pressure is put on the front brakes ... there-by cooking them.
10-18-2010, 03:14 PM
#30
Truth be told, I began reading and researching on Holden's. You had valid arguements, but there had to be a reason why your results were so much different.
When I read the 50/50 weight bias, I kind of put two and two together. My stripped race car is still 53/47. I would kill for 50/50 ...
When I read the 50/50 weight bias, I kind of put two and two together. My stripped race car is still 53/47. I would kill for 50/50 ...
10-19-2010, 12:58 AM
#31
TECH Fanatic
I have a brake bias valve i'd like to install to put a little more brake on the rear so i can get my car to squat under braking rather than nose dive.
It's illegal for a street car to run these here, so if i do install it i will have to hide the valve somewhere, like in my centre consul.
I know if i do change my braking & my shocks to a set of adj Bilsteins i will have another 1 to 2 seconds in it, but $$$$ are a problem at present after a Dual timing chain breakage.
It's illegal for a street car to run these here, so if i do install it i will have to hide the valve somewhere, like in my centre consul.
I know if i do change my braking & my shocks to a set of adj Bilsteins i will have another 1 to 2 seconds in it, but $$$$ are a problem at present after a Dual timing chain breakage.
Last edited by ls1 1990 VN; 10-20-2010 at 04:11 AM.
10-19-2010, 06:31 AM
#32
Not sure if this is a better option, but ...
http://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/34...oductId=756330
It works OK ... there is a little "wind-up" in the cable before the adjuster moves. Tilton makes one that has a detent built in might work better.
I've used these on a couple cars. It's better than routing brake lines into the passenger compartment.
http://www.jegs.com/i/Wilwood/950/34...oductId=756330
It works OK ... there is a little "wind-up" in the cable before the adjuster moves. Tilton makes one that has a detent built in might work better.
I've used these on a couple cars. It's better than routing brake lines into the passenger compartment.
10-25-2010, 09:00 PM
#35
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well, the way I ran them, I have to be careful not to go full lock with the steering wheel haha. Not a problem on track but I've forgotten while driving through the paddock. I have a 2000 WS6 to give you an idea of the front nose layout. I also still have the plastic wheel wells.
I ran the hose from the slot under the front turn signals, cut a hole in the wheel wells right next to the inner fender than connected it to the ducts. I made sure to have the steering wheel turned full out for each side to see how far the hose was going to be stretched. I'm always moving things so this setup will change but it has worked and I get good airflow from right under the turn signals.
I ran the hose from the slot under the front turn signals, cut a hole in the wheel wells right next to the inner fender than connected it to the ducts. I made sure to have the steering wheel turned full out for each side to see how far the hose was going to be stretched. I'm always moving things so this setup will change but it has worked and I get good airflow from right under the turn signals.
10-26-2010, 03:15 PM
#36
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So I just got back from the track. I took my bike. My friend took his Z06 (stock) and another took a new 5.0 Mustang auto without the track pack.
the Mustang couldn't make it 5 laps.
The Z06 lasted 7 or 8 laps before getting some fade
I'm quite confident my F-body is going to need a grand worth of upgrades before it would survive at ECR.
I think I'll be sticking to the bike for now.
the Mustang couldn't make it 5 laps.
The Z06 lasted 7 or 8 laps before getting some fade
I'm quite confident my F-body is going to need a grand worth of upgrades before it would survive at ECR.
I think I'll be sticking to the bike for now.
10-26-2010, 07:32 PM
#37
well, the way I ran them, I have to be careful not to go full lock with the steering wheel haha. Not a problem on track but I've forgotten while driving through the paddock. I have a 2000 WS6 to give you an idea of the front nose layout. I also still have the plastic wheel wells.
I had the exact same problem. My fix?
I cut a 4" x 4" piece of thin metal ... I had some scrap aluminum, so I used it.
I then marked where the tire edge would hit the duct work.
I arced the metal piece around the duct work and duct taped it into place.
Now the tire rubs the metal and not the fabric. Has worked great for two seasons.
10-26-2010, 07:37 PM
#38
So I just got back from the track. I took my bike. My friend took his Z06 (stock) and another took a new 5.0 Mustang auto without the track pack.
the Mustang couldn't make it 5 laps.
The Z06 lasted 7 or 8 laps before getting some fade
I'm quite confident my F-body is going to need a grand worth of upgrades before it would survive at ECR.
I think I'll be sticking to the bike for now.
the Mustang couldn't make it 5 laps.
The Z06 lasted 7 or 8 laps before getting some fade
I'm quite confident my F-body is going to need a grand worth of upgrades before it would survive at ECR.
I think I'll be sticking to the bike for now.
I reach 5800 rpm in 4th on the back straight. That's about 120mph. 30 other cars ... 3rd and 4th gens and Mustangs of all walks ... all see similar results.
You guys have to be doing something wrong or using the wrong components.
10-27-2010, 12:03 AM
#39
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Trey, I swear to you that my 3400lb F-Car, using 12" Wagner rotors, C5 calipers and Carbotech pads and SRF fluid cooled using Blaine Fab duct work has no issues at all in a 20 lap race at ECR in 90* ambient temps.
I reach 5800 rpm in 4th on the back straight. That's about 120mph. 30 other cars ... 3rd and 4th gens and Mustangs of all walks ... all see similar results.
You guys have to be doing something wrong or using the wrong components.
I reach 5800 rpm in 4th on the back straight. That's about 120mph. 30 other cars ... 3rd and 4th gens and Mustangs of all walks ... all see similar results.
You guys have to be doing something wrong or using the wrong components.
When are you going to come out? I'm going out again Nov 20, 21, 26, 27 and 28, assuming I don't wad it up
