Video - My First Spin
12-06-2010, 11:55 PM
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Video - My First Spin Ok, it's nothing major, but it is my first 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcO4buRlIHQ
Last run for the Green Run Group during the Drivers Edge event at Motorsport Ranch in Cresson TX 12/4&5/2010. Instructor was introducing me to Trail Braking and downshifting during braking instead of throttle blipping after braking. I was still in the process of digesting and trying to apply what he was explaining to me. Anyway, coming into Little Bend, I was hard on the brakes, a little late on the clutch, and from what I remember, a little long on it as well (tach shows engine RPM drop of 2,000 before I let the clutch out). I think I was a little fast so was still pretty heavy on the brakes when I started my turn-in. Then I remembered to let the clutch out (video makes it look like I dumped it... probably did... can't remember
) I do remember the rear-end was still pretty light and squirley at that point. All it needed was a little 'upsetting'... I think I accomplished that!
Truth be told, I was actually happy this happened. Was happy to get a spin out of the way!
Constructive criticism always appreciated.
Mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcO4buRlIHQLast run for the Green Run Group during the Drivers Edge event at Motorsport Ranch in Cresson TX 12/4&5/2010. Instructor was introducing me to Trail Braking and downshifting during braking instead of throttle blipping after braking. I was still in the process of digesting and trying to apply what he was explaining to me. Anyway, coming into Little Bend, I was hard on the brakes, a little late on the clutch, and from what I remember, a little long on it as well (tach shows engine RPM drop of 2,000 before I let the clutch out). I think I was a little fast so was still pretty heavy on the brakes when I started my turn-in. Then I remembered to let the clutch out (video makes it look like I dumped it... probably did... can't remember
) I do remember the rear-end was still pretty light and squirley at that point. All it needed was a little 'upsetting'... I think I accomplished that!Truth be told, I was actually happy this happened. Was happy to get a spin out of the way!
Constructive criticism always appreciated.
Mark.
12-07-2010, 06:27 AM
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Yeah, too abrupt on letting the clutch out I think. I am still trying to figure out heel-and-toe braking and have done several HPDEs. I have had trouble slowing down for that corner but have not lost the rear yet.
I also run with TDE but have not been out this year. Cresson is a really fun track. Texas World Speedway is better suited to our cars though and is worth the trip.
I also run with TDE but have not been out this year. Cresson is a really fun track. Texas World Speedway is better suited to our cars though and is worth the trip.
12-07-2010, 07:46 AM
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if youve never spun youre not trying hard enough. everyone does.
practice downshifting on the street first, not the track. it wasnt that you were too fast in letting out the clutch, you were going too fast and had the RPMs too low. it was about the same as doing a downshift without blipping the gas. the motor had to catch up with the trans RPM by itself, which ends in bad wheel hop. that can also severely damage your rear end. listen for a whine on the highway now. it doesnt take much at all to hurt a stock 10 bolt. just ONE good hop like that can cause damage.
also, dont 'heel-toe.' what you should do in an fbody is keep the left half of your right foot on the brake, and roll to the right side to blip the throttle. there are threads and diagrams of it in this section. practice it at every light/sign/curve in the road BEFORE you get to the track, as you wont **** up as bad on the street as you can on the track. youre not going as fast, and not braking as hard. ive been doing it for years, and can be nearly seamless on the street and track. just takes practice and time.
make sure you wear good shoes when racing. typical sneakers may be too big, thick, or heavy for proper pedal feel. invest in some driving shoes or racing boots. i use piloti G16s for the street and autox, and a cheap pair of real racing shoes for track days.
practice downshifting on the street first, not the track. it wasnt that you were too fast in letting out the clutch, you were going too fast and had the RPMs too low. it was about the same as doing a downshift without blipping the gas. the motor had to catch up with the trans RPM by itself, which ends in bad wheel hop. that can also severely damage your rear end. listen for a whine on the highway now. it doesnt take much at all to hurt a stock 10 bolt. just ONE good hop like that can cause damage.
also, dont 'heel-toe.' what you should do in an fbody is keep the left half of your right foot on the brake, and roll to the right side to blip the throttle. there are threads and diagrams of it in this section. practice it at every light/sign/curve in the road BEFORE you get to the track, as you wont **** up as bad on the street as you can on the track. youre not going as fast, and not braking as hard. ive been doing it for years, and can be nearly seamless on the street and track. just takes practice and time.
make sure you wear good shoes when racing. typical sneakers may be too big, thick, or heavy for proper pedal feel. invest in some driving shoes or racing boots. i use piloti G16s for the street and autox, and a cheap pair of real racing shoes for track days.
12-07-2010, 08:29 AM
#5
Enjoyed your comapnay this weekend. Always great to put a screen name with a face.
Wheel hop ... gotta love it!
You were close to the top of 4th and entry into to LB is about 4.5K in third. It's a significant braking zone.
I've been able to almost eliminate rear wheel hop by altering driving style.
Instead of going down when I think it's time, I wait till the very last moment to go down a gear. Maybe an extra half-second ...
So in this case, I would be hard on the brakes, clutch out in 4th. It might run the rpms down to 3800-4K. Then a quick DS, with the clutch in and out.
Because there is now only about a 500 rpm difference, the throttle blip is not as important.
Don't misundersand, the car will still unsettle, but it certainly won't be as prone to wheel hop and much easier to control.
Instructor was introducing me to Trail Braking and downshifting during braking instead of throttle blipping after braking. I was still in the process of digesting and trying to apply what he was explaining to me. Anyway, coming into Little Bend, I was hard on the brakes, a little late on the clutch, and from what I remember, a little long on it as well (tach shows engine RPM drop of 2,000 before I let the clutch out). I think I was a little fast so was still pretty heavy on the brakes when I started my turn-in. Then I remembered to let the clutch out (video makes it look like I dumped it... probably did... can't remember ) I do remember the rear-end was still pretty light and squirley at that point. All it needed was a little 'upsetting'... I think I accomplished that!
) I do remember the rear-end was still pretty light and squirley at that point. All it needed was a little 'upsetting'... I think I accomplished that!You were close to the top of 4th and entry into to LB is about 4.5K in third. It's a significant braking zone.
I've been able to almost eliminate rear wheel hop by altering driving style.
Instead of going down when I think it's time, I wait till the very last moment to go down a gear. Maybe an extra half-second ...
So in this case, I would be hard on the brakes, clutch out in 4th. It might run the rpms down to 3800-4K. Then a quick DS, with the clutch in and out.
Because there is now only about a 500 rpm difference, the throttle blip is not as important.
Don't misundersand, the car will still unsettle, but it certainly won't be as prone to wheel hop and much easier to control.
12-07-2010, 10:45 AM
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Exactly! Btw... he had me utilizing this same technique entering rattlesnake. Only difference there was utilizing trail braking coming up the hill around the first right turn. That was the intent anyway...
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12-09-2010, 08:06 PM
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There is more here than when to downshift. If your right foot was on the brakes and your left foot was on the clutch, it only takes a second or so for the RPM's to drop to idle. In this case you let the clutch out, and no matter how smooth you would have done it, you shifted a massive amount of bias to the rear. Engine compression on decel is part of you braking balance. Upset this and you add/subtract bias in a big way.
Never, never, never brake while the clutch is pressed (other than for a downshift). Make the downshift quick and get off that left pedal. Learn the balance of the car while using the compression braking affect of the motor.
For this corner, I downshift very late. Just before I make my turn-in move, I zing a downshift. This is not the best corner for trailbraking (off camber and downhill entry). The momentary loss of compression braking is a good thing when you make your turn-in as you need rear grip to shift weight. Your also transitioning from lots of brake to a little less brake, so as the clutch engages, you will still be OK.
Never, never, never brake while the clutch is pressed (other than for a downshift). Make the downshift quick and get off that left pedal. Learn the balance of the car while using the compression braking affect of the motor.
For this corner, I downshift very late. Just before I make my turn-in move, I zing a downshift. This is not the best corner for trailbraking (off camber and downhill entry). The momentary loss of compression braking is a good thing when you make your turn-in as you need rear grip to shift weight. Your also transitioning from lots of brake to a little less brake, so as the clutch engages, you will still be OK.
12-14-2010, 03:28 PM
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Your far better off going thru the corner in the gear that got you there. Make the downshift and stuff after the corner. This in not ideal, but better than pushing in the clutch and coasting thru the corner.
12-14-2010, 09:11 PM
#11
ditto, i like to get in the gear i exit the corner with before i enter the turn. but we all have hiccups. i learned real quick what happens when you are mid turn and let off the throttle. takes the load of the rear end and car gets squirrelly lol. happy racing!
12-15-2010, 08:48 PM
#12
I've had something similar happen to me at the Spring Mountain Corvette driving school (just did it back in November), and it was a direct result of not getting a good enough throttle blip during a heel toe downshift. Thankfully, I only got the big shudder and not the spinning out (I'm not sure if I have the Grand Sport/ZO6 traction control to thank or the IRS), but a proper heel toe downshift was all that was required to fix it. The best thing they taught me over the three days I was there was to make sure you pick your right heel up off the floor during the heel-toe - it gives your foot the extra freedom needed to cover the brake while getting a good blip on the gas pedal.
Having watched the instructors there do it, it can be done smoothly and effectively for fast and slow corners. One thing they did mention was if you had any doubts, just leave it in the same gear and focus on maintaining as much momentum in the corners as possible. It really took the stress off, especially when I was just learning the track.
From their head instructor: "What's the best time around this track? The one where you stay on it."
Having watched the instructors there do it, it can be done smoothly and effectively for fast and slow corners. One thing they did mention was if you had any doubts, just leave it in the same gear and focus on maintaining as much momentum in the corners as possible. It really took the stress off, especially when I was just learning the track.
From their head instructor: "What's the best time around this track? The one where you stay on it."
01-11-2011, 01:54 AM
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Haha.. The title of this thread reminds me of this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo9tLrOHXH4
Seriously though, lots of good info here already.. I will just follow up by saying "Practice your heel-toe every day whether your driving in traffic or having fun on a twisty road.. Practice, practice, practice!" Ive been practicing for 10 years now and I still dont think I have mastered heel-toe yet. It can sometimes be a black-art almost.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo9tLrOHXH4
Seriously though, lots of good info here already.. I will just follow up by saying "Practice your heel-toe every day whether your driving in traffic or having fun on a twisty road.. Practice, practice, practice!" Ive been practicing for 10 years now and I still dont think I have mastered heel-toe yet. It can sometimes be a black-art almost.