Good car for road racing?
08-18-2006, 10:19 PM
#21
Originally Posted by longdaddy
Sure you can mod the hell out of it with the only purpose to be good on the track, but then how much of an f-body you got left there?
I would like to know more about your track experience on both platforms.
Not trying to start an arguement or debate ... just curious because our experiences seem to be polar opposites.
08-19-2006, 12:00 PM
#22
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I have owned both myself and can tell you that my WS6 would not even come close to doing the same things on Pacific Raceways that my Z does. I do not know what you mean by wrestling a corvette. If driven properly and smoothly there is no wrestling needed. Honestly guys, the C5Z could pull .98-1.0g right from the showroom. A f-body couldn't even hit .9g. The power to weight ratio isn't even close and major engine and weight reduction would have to be done to get the f-body even close. As longdaddy said, how much stock f-body will you have left then? There is a reason that the SCCA T1 class (and most all other classes) is dominated by the C5Z. Do all those racers who are professionals know something? You bet, its not economically viable to use the f-body and build it within the rules to compete in the T1 class.
08-19-2006, 02:16 PM
#23
If you look closely, I was comparing a well prepped, suspension modified F-Car to a showroom Z06.
Stock for stock ... I would agree whole-heartedly that the Vette is far superior.
But a $6000 F-Facr and about $2500 in shocks, springs and rod ends can easily hang with a showroom $40K Vette.
Stock for stock ... I would agree whole-heartedly that the Vette is far superior.
But a $6000 F-Facr and about $2500 in shocks, springs and rod ends can easily hang with a showroom $40K Vette.
08-19-2006, 03:11 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
But a $6000 F-Facr and about $2500 in shocks, springs and rod ends can easily hang with a showroom $40K Vette.
i do not have any roadcouse experience in my f-body (it was a4), I also never did any suspension mods to it.
08-19-2006, 04:33 PM
#25
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I'm sorry but the uni-body structure is not as good as the y-body platform for rigidity. But like you said, it can be better if you throw money at it for suspension mods but it will not hang. Why? You've added even more weight to get that stiffness. You are seriously underpowered at this point compared to a C5Z. Sure throw some $$ at the motor to overcome that but now where are you at? That C5Z still is stock, has AC and I get 23mpg in rush hour traffic here. Now that is value complete with warranty. My WS6 could not touch that. If you look you can find a good condition Z for around $30k for an '02.
08-19-2006, 06:54 PM
#26
My 96 CMC Firebird weighs under 3000 lbs dry, with all the suspension you mention. I have about $8500 in the whole car.
And after a few years of tracking and racing, I've found that momentum is what lowers lap times, not horsepower.
A Z51 on Hoosiers couldn't hang with my 230 rwhp F-car on Toyos at Motorsports Ranch in Cresson. And it wasn't driver. The Vette owner won the regional NASA Time Trials championship in his car.
Again, this is my observation after racing a F-Car for years and instructing in a Vette for over a year.
And after a few years of tracking and racing, I've found that momentum is what lowers lap times, not horsepower.
A Z51 on Hoosiers couldn't hang with my 230 rwhp F-car on Toyos at Motorsports Ranch in Cresson. And it wasn't driver. The Vette owner won the regional NASA Time Trials championship in his car.
Again, this is my observation after racing a F-Car for years and instructing in a Vette for over a year.
08-19-2006, 06:55 PM
#27
Originally Posted by longdaddy
i'll believe it when i see it.
i do not have any roadcouse experience in my f-body (it was a4), I also never did any suspension mods to it.
i do not have any roadcouse experience in my f-body (it was a4), I also never did any suspension mods to it.
08-19-2006, 07:10 PM
#28
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Guys my intent of this is not to start Crap. On Paper Yeah I too would choose a vette over F-body. But like I said after driving/racing the vette this yr. I would rather keep my f-body. I saw first hand the proof in lap times/drivng impression and was rather shocked by what it was. For $33 grand, a lighter car, way better brakes, I was expecting much more from it, and that didnt happen.
Now if we are comparing stock to stock, I can give you that a vette would be faster. But a F-body with not much work, can be made faster than a vette rather easily. Does the vette have a much better performance potential modifiied yeah everything does. But for $15,000 you can have my car that is 2 sec a lap faster than a zo-6. I have the lap times to prove it. JFYI my car with 338rwhp ran the same lap time as the Vette. My car also pulled better on the wet skid pad too. Firebird=.79 vette =.77(wet skid pad me driving both cars). I have dry skid pad readings but cant compare them, track was not completly dry when I went.
Oh yeah my car does have fuel interior, street tires,bolt-in roll cage, ac and gets 30.5 on the highway.
The 02 zo-6 im talking about is gutted of uncessary equipment and parts also has Race seat, pass seat removed, corsa exhaust and 315/18 street tires all the way around. It does have aftermarket sway bars. The one thing I brought up earlier was when you are on the race track the vette feels much faster than it really is. What I thought my lap time were going to be were condierably off form what my Butt-o meter was telling me. Even the car owner agrees with this after getting out of my firebird. The vette feel like you are flying and your not.
Again this is my opinion on the subject.
John
Ps Damm Mitch I need to put the Bird on a Diet! 3795 wet/driver with full tank of fuel
Now if we are comparing stock to stock, I can give you that a vette would be faster. But a F-body with not much work, can be made faster than a vette rather easily. Does the vette have a much better performance potential modifiied yeah everything does. But for $15,000 you can have my car that is 2 sec a lap faster than a zo-6. I have the lap times to prove it. JFYI my car with 338rwhp ran the same lap time as the Vette. My car also pulled better on the wet skid pad too. Firebird=.79 vette =.77(wet skid pad me driving both cars). I have dry skid pad readings but cant compare them, track was not completly dry when I went.
Oh yeah my car does have fuel interior, street tires,bolt-in roll cage, ac and gets 30.5 on the highway.
The 02 zo-6 im talking about is gutted of uncessary equipment and parts also has Race seat, pass seat removed, corsa exhaust and 315/18 street tires all the way around. It does have aftermarket sway bars. The one thing I brought up earlier was when you are on the race track the vette feels much faster than it really is. What I thought my lap time were going to be were condierably off form what my Butt-o meter was telling me. Even the car owner agrees with this after getting out of my firebird. The vette feel like you are flying and your not.
Again this is my opinion on the subject.
John
Ps Damm Mitch I need to put the Bird on a Diet! 3795 wet/driver with full tank of fuel
08-19-2006, 07:42 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Ojustracing
Ps Damm Mitch I need to put the Bird on a Diet! 3795 wet/driver with full tank of fuel
But, to be 100% honest, it still needed a windshield and the safety gear. Still, we had to add almost 200lbs of ballast to make minimum weight.
08-19-2006, 08:23 PM
#31
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You guys are too funny. Neither of you started this thread and the original topic was what car to get for tracking. It appears that both of you have done some extensive mods to your cars and they are no where near what they were before. To get an f-body under 3k lbs is a feat and once there your right, you don't need as much hp. Look at what I said, power to weight is one of the main keys. A Lotus Elise is a perfect example. I am suprised that an instructor of all people would start comparing a highly modded car vs a stock car. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I guess we can agree to disagree.
08-19-2006, 08:54 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by ram-it
You guys are too funny. Neither of you started this thread and the original topic was what car to get for tracking. It appears that both of you have done some extensive mods to your cars and they are no where near what they were before. To get an f-body under 3k lbs is a feat and once there your right, you don't need as much hp. Look at what I said, power to weight is one of the main keys. A Lotus Elise is a perfect example. I am suprised that an instructor of all people would start comparing a highly modded car vs a stock car. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I guess we can agree to disagree.
Normal Vette owner responce
John
08-19-2006, 09:15 PM
#33
Originally Posted by bbfirebird
I'd like to get a car for road race use, preferably able to drive to and from the track (legally ). I also want to do this as relatively cheap as I can, yet have a car that will perform very well on a track. This has brought me to a few possibilities: C5, C4, LS1 f-body, or LT1 f-body (maybe even a gutted late 3rd gen f-body). Obviously the C5 would be much better in terms of suspension and chassis, but dollar-for-dollar, a 3rd gen or LT1 f-body would be much cheaper, leaving a lot of extra money for mods.
). I also want to do this as relatively cheap as I can, yet have a car that will perform very well on a track. This has brought me to a few possibilities: C5, C4, LS1 f-body, or LT1 f-body (maybe even a gutted late 3rd gen f-body). Obviously the C5 would be much better in terms of suspension and chassis, but dollar-for-dollar, a 3rd gen or LT1 f-body would be much cheaper, leaving a lot of extra money for mods.ram-it ... you are comparing stock for stock and modded for modded. So, I can't disagree with your assessment.
But, modded F-Car vs stock C5 ... the F-car can and does hold it's own. And based upon the person who DID start the thread, that answers his concerns directly. Note the words "relatively cheap".
And getting an F-Car below 3K lbs isn't difficult at all. You just have to be willing to do some surgery.
Personally, I like the look I get from C5, M3 and 911 owners when they come to my pit and look under the hood and see stock exhaust manifolds.
But I can't drive on the track listening to CDs and with AC. When I pass guys doing that, I just laugh ...
08-19-2006, 10:38 PM
#34
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Notracing, no need for that.
Mitch, I appreciate the non-personal discussion. I never said a modded f-body vs stock C5 could not hold its own. IT should. You cannot argue that the C5 platform is a great car to start with. I would venture to say a modded f-body (I'm talking fairly limited budget of $18k for car and mods) vs a stock C5 that you can find for $18k would be an interesting comparison on the road course. As for surgery, that is pretty severe to get the f-body under 3k lbs.
And if you did pass someone on the course listening to CD's with the AC on you should have pitted them.
Happy tracking!
Mitch, I appreciate the non-personal discussion. I never said a modded f-body vs stock C5 could not hold its own. IT should. You cannot argue that the C5 platform is a great car to start with. I would venture to say a modded f-body (I'm talking fairly limited budget of $18k for car and mods) vs a stock C5 that you can find for $18k would be an interesting comparison on the road course. As for surgery, that is pretty severe to get the f-body under 3k lbs.
And if you did pass someone on the course listening to CD's with the AC on you should have pitted them.
Happy tracking!
08-20-2006, 12:08 AM
#35
Originally Posted by ram-it
Mitch, I appreciate the non-personal discussion.
Originally Posted by ram-it
You guys are too funny.
[snip]
I am suprised that an instructor of all people would start comparing a highly modded car vs a stock car.
[snip]
I am suprised that an instructor of all people would start comparing a highly modded car vs a stock car.
Trust me ... it's not an easy pill to swallow, especially after having plunked down big dollars for a "supercar".
I would probably be basing a lot of my savy on internet and magazine hype.
Originally Posted by ram-it
I never said a modded f-body vs stock C5 could not hold its own.
Originally Posted by ram-it
But like you said, it can be better if you throw money at it for suspension mods but it will not hang.
The platform is very stable, but unforgiving. The stock C5 seems fast and will definitely throw you around inside the car through turns. While doing it, the ride is smooth and the suspension compliant.
But all that dampening, and smoothing gives me no real SOTP feel for the road, traction, slip, changes in road surface.
The modded F-Car, on the other hand, is more like a go-cart. You feel the changes underneath you. There isn't any softening of the feedback. The "raw" is there, where the C5 seems sauteed.
A C5 will allow a mediocre driver to feel fast and confortable. The same driver in a well prepped and sorted F-Car, will spin on every corner.
08-20-2006, 08:54 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by mitchntx
I think that we've answered that set of criteria very well.
ram-it ... you are comparing stock for stock and modded for modded. So, I can't disagree with your assessment.
But, modded F-Car vs stock C5 ... the F-car can and does hold it's own. And based upon the person who DID start the thread, that answers his concerns directly. Note the words "relatively cheap".
And getting an F-Car below 3K lbs isn't difficult at all. You just have to be willing to do some surgery.
Personally, I like the look I get from C5, M3 and 911 owners when they come to my pit and look under the hood and see stock exhaust manifolds.
But I can't drive on the track listening to CDs and with AC. When I pass guys doing that, I just laugh ...
ram-it ... you are comparing stock for stock and modded for modded. So, I can't disagree with your assessment.
But, modded F-Car vs stock C5 ... the F-car can and does hold it's own. And based upon the person who DID start the thread, that answers his concerns directly. Note the words "relatively cheap".
And getting an F-Car below 3K lbs isn't difficult at all. You just have to be willing to do some surgery.
Personally, I like the look I get from C5, M3 and 911 owners when they come to my pit and look under the hood and see stock exhaust manifolds.
But I can't drive on the track listening to CDs and with AC. When I pass guys doing that, I just laugh ...
1. This is a track only car. I don't care about mpg or creature comforts. However I would like to be able to drive it to and from the track (ie retain signal lamps, cats, etc).
2. I don't particularly want to do any competitive racing (yet), so I'm talking about just doing HPDE events and autocrossing. So I don't have to worry about keeping the car within a set of rules.
3. I want to spend as little as possible between the car and mods. So basically a C5 is out of the question- leaving us with a C4 or a 3rd-4th gen f-body (I know Miatas are great, but I'm a big guy- 6'5"- and I love the V8 feel).
My real big question is, what does it take to make a 3rd gen or 4th gen f-body handle like a C5? How do the chassis compare between C4, 3rd gen f-body, and 4th gen f-body? The power is there in any of the platforms, so thats not my main concern. I just want a car to take to the track, throw it around, have some fun, and go home. I don't want a lot of maintenance, and I don't want a lot of extra expenses.
08-20-2006, 09:47 PM
#37
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Originally Posted by bbfirebird
Thanks for reigning the discussion back in. I do know that stock for stock and mod for mod a Vette would be better than an f-body. But here is my criteria:
1. This is a track only car. I don't care about mpg or creature comforts. However I would like to be able to drive it to and from the track (ie retain signal lamps, cats, etc).
2. I don't particularly want to do any competitive racing (yet), so I'm talking about just doing HPDE events and autocrossing. So I don't have to worry about keeping the car within a set of rules.
3. I want to spend as little as possible between the car and mods. So basically a C5 is out of the question- leaving us with a C4 or a 3rd-4th gen f-body (I know Miatas are great, but I'm a big guy- 6'5"- and I love the V8 feel).
My real big question is, what does it take to make a 3rd gen or 4th gen f-body handle like a C5? How do the chassis compare between C4, 3rd gen f-body, and 4th gen f-body? The power is there in any of the platforms, so thats not my main concern. I just want a car to take to the track, throw it around, have some fun, and go home. I don't want a lot of maintenance, and I don't want a lot of extra expenses.
1. This is a track only car. I don't care about mpg or creature comforts. However I would like to be able to drive it to and from the track (ie retain signal lamps, cats, etc).
2. I don't particularly want to do any competitive racing (yet), so I'm talking about just doing HPDE events and autocrossing. So I don't have to worry about keeping the car within a set of rules.
3. I want to spend as little as possible between the car and mods. So basically a C5 is out of the question- leaving us with a C4 or a 3rd-4th gen f-body (I know Miatas are great, but I'm a big guy- 6'5"- and I love the V8 feel).
My real big question is, what does it take to make a 3rd gen or 4th gen f-body handle like a C5? How do the chassis compare between C4, 3rd gen f-body, and 4th gen f-body? The power is there in any of the platforms, so thats not my main concern. I just want a car to take to the track, throw it around, have some fun, and go home. I don't want a lot of maintenance, and I don't want a lot of extra expenses.
01 Firebird Hard Top Arctic White.
ls-1, 6 speed
Power windows and locks, AC
Cruise, tilt, ABS, No traction control.
Cloth interior, manual seats
CD player, only option on car is the Power steering cooler.
59,000+ miles
Vin:2G2FV22G412118171
Good stuff:
17/9.5 wheels, 275/40/17 Currently KD.
Corvette zo-6 front brakes, Bob B. Brackets, Carbotech front pads, Serven Brake Ducts currently installed, Extra Air dam
Koni SA all the way round, Eibach Pro-kits.
Strano Bars 35/22 05'
Rod ended LCA/Phb 04'
Lg SFC with Drivers V-brace 04'
UMI Tranny Mounted TA 05'
Engine: July 05 55,000 miles
Tea 1.5 5.3 Heads
222/222 581 114+2 cam
Pushrods, Comp lifters, New Lifter Holders, ls2 timing chain, new oil pump.
Gm MLS gaskets, ARP head bolts. 180 stat, 30lb Fms Injectors.
Pacesetter headers(7/06), ORY(7/06), Moroso Sprial Flow muffler, with GMMG
UD pulley's, Katech manual tensioner, Ngk plugs, Lid, Ported TB, Free ram air mod.
Compression ratio is about 10.7 to 10.8 heads are unmilled.
Old numbers 398hp/409 Torque. 12.8 afr. haven't been back to dyno for a retune yet.
Poly, tranny mount and drivers side engine mount.
I even have Oil Analysis reports on the engine too.
Tranny:
rebuilt in July 04, New 5/6 gr set, steel shift fork, carbon fiber rings, bearings. 51,500 miles tranny broke 500 miles after the clutch, first time on got on it after the Clutch. Lost 5/6 gear.
Spec Alum Flywheel, Spec stage 3 Clutch, drill mod, adjustable master cyl. 51,000 miles.
Pro-5 shifter, alum LG pedal covers(brake and gas)
Rear end: 8/02
was rebuilt at 21812 miles. Replaced Torsion unit, Gears and bearings.
Interior: Clean and Non smoker
5 point autopower Cage
6 point Drivers side harness
Rear seats are removed(I still have all parts) and I have original rear plastic panels where the cage is mounted. Previous owner bought used ones so the original are unmodified.
John
08-20-2006, 10:18 PM
#38
I wish I could give you a reasonable opinion on comparing those 3 platforms. But I can't. I've never driven or owned a 3rd gen F-car or a C4. I do know there are some fast ones out there.
4th gen LT1 cars are really getting cheap. I bought a 94 Formula roller for $250, a second 94 Formie for $1200 including a motor and a 96 Z roller for $300. There are deals out there ....
Reasonable mileage LT1 motor/trans packages can be had for under $2000, suspension for under $400 and decent spings and shocks for another $750. Install good brake pads and you have a solid platform with which to start.
4th gen LT1 cars are really getting cheap. I bought a 94 Formula roller for $250, a second 94 Formie for $1200 including a motor and a 96 Z roller for $300. There are deals out there ....
Reasonable mileage LT1 motor/trans packages can be had for under $2000, suspension for under $400 and decent spings and shocks for another $750. Install good brake pads and you have a solid platform with which to start.
08-21-2006, 11:36 AM
#39
Originally Posted by mitchntx
Look, it's obvious to even the casual observer that you are a C5 guy through and through. They are a great car ... I have hundreds of laps in the platform at Texas Motorspeedway instructing for these guys ... www.texasdrivingexperience.com
Sorry to be off topic, but funny story. I used to work for Don when he owned Panoz Racing School franchise at TMS.
Did you ever drive for them?
I DO, however, understand the humor.