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I bought the car brand new and it's really clean, ~18k miles and I have all the stock parts so I don't want to do anything I can't undo. Fairly rare color combo as well. I have ridden in a few high HP (900rwhp+) turbo cars and they are very fun, but a D1 is just so easy to bolt on.
Not sure about my heads, may put the stock ones back on and sell these to offset the cost and a blower cam. Buy a different front bumper and do FMIC, I'll see what my tuner suggests. I'd like to be around 600-650 rwhp with a safe tune.
Still makes no sense for power gained VS money spent.
Think about it… How much power will you really gain with the “bolt-on” blower kit? What RPM range will that power be available?
Add up total cost of a blower kit, cam, valve train parts, exhaust system/headers, and install/labor. You will have a crap power curve because the blower doesn’t make decent boost till 4k+. If you pulley the blower system to make decent boost at lower RPM the belt will slip. Not talking about the nice drag blower setups with huge belts. We are talking the typical “bolt-on” street kits.
Now compare A $190 shipped GT45 turbocharger bolted in place of the rear muffler assy’s. Using the factory exhaust manifolds and factory exhaust system (with cats removed), No cam required, no intercooler required. New set of shimmed LS6 valve springs is all that’s necessary. Less than $600 worth of flange’s piping, waste gate, BOV etc… Add a $200 water meth inj kit. You will have a nice power curve that makes its target boost quickly and holds through the RPM range without belt slip, without a cam, intercooler, exhaust etc… It will meet your 650hp goal and at 6-7x less cost and perform better. Not to mention resale value will most likely be higher because everyone knows turbos are better…
ForceFed86 is spot on. The cost to go turbo these days is hard to pass up for the power that can be made. No, it's not always a simple "bolt on" kit like a blower but in the end the HP/$ is much better.
Here’s a great example on a Procharged F1R 434 we’ve been playing with this year. Unlike the baby belt street kits, we get zero belt slip here so we could pulley the crap out of it and we know the boost numbers are legit.
This is a “10lb pulley combo” . Sure it makes 10lbs… from 6300 to 6500+ (6500 our redline). But if you look at the graph at 4500 it’s barely at 5lbs, 5500 it’s at 7lbs, 6100 its at 9, etc… This is garbage for making useable power in the typical RPM ranges a street car operates in. Esp. when using much smaller head units.
Bumping it up to the 20lb pulley combo, and this unit starts to kick ***! The performance levels here are great. On the typical street kits I’ve worked with, you can’t run the pulley combos needed to get the blower speeds high enough to make decent boost quickly. Running the 8lb blower setups typical to the C5’s are garbage IMO, making less than 2-3lbs in the lower RPM ranges.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 10-27-2016 at 01:10 PM.
ForceFed86 is spot on. The cost to go turbo these days is hard to pass up for the power that can be made. No, it's not always a simple "bolt on" kit like a blower but in the end the HP/$ is much better.
I’d think any exhaust shop worth a damn could do a simple mild steel remote hot/cold side relatively quick/cheap. With the car up on a lift they could set you up with some crush bent 2.25-2.5” piping easy. Little bit of welding for the flange, WG, and BOV. Could have you making turbo noises in a few hours
You can get a d1sc 8-rib "kit" pieced together for under $3500 and make about 550rwhp. I know because I did it. Either way you look at it though you are going to have to cut the front bumper open to get a decent intercooler on these cars unless you plan on the twin inter coolers from procahrger.. If you really want to keep it nice you can just buy an extra bumper, cut and paint it and keep yours in storage so you can always put it back on.
If you have the patience and $ your can get a front mount huron speed kit that retains a/c with a turbo k-member and you could always have a shop install it if you don't have the tools or patience for it. Honestly I was more interested in going fast then keeping it a daily so I went with a v1 kit and removed my a/c and cut the front bumper, but my car still looks pretty clean IMO.
Here is a complete kit I pieced together for $3200 with an 8-rib like 4+ years ago..
Still makes no sense for power gained VS money spent.
Think about it… How much power will you really gain with the “bolt-on” blower kit? What RPM range will that power be available?
Add up total cost of a blower kit, cam, valve train parts, exhaust system/headers, and install/labor. You will have a crap power curve because the blower doesn’t make decent boost till 4k+. If you pulley the blower system to make decent boost at lower RPM the belt will slip. Not talking about the nice drag blower setups with huge belts. We are talking the typical “bolt-on” street kits.
Now compare A $190 shipped GT45 turbocharger bolted in place of the rear muffler assy’s. Using the factory exhaust manifolds and factory exhaust system (with cats removed), No cam required, no intercooler required. New set of shimmed LS6 valve springs is all that’s necessary. Less than $600 worth of flange’s piping, waste gate, BOV etc… Add a $200 water meth inj kit. You will have a nice power curve that makes its target boost quickly and holds through the RPM range without belt slip, without a cam, intercooler, exhaust etc… It will meet your 650hp goal and at 6-7x less cost and perform better. Not to mention resale value will most likely be higher because everyone knows turbos are better…
I will mull it over and talk with my shop next week. If the cost difference is that big it may be hard to pass up. I don't really want to redo my entire exhaust system for a 3rd time but I do still have the stock exhaust. I'd be doing all the labor if I go procharger. Last time I talked to these guys they were designing a system to retain A/C and stock K-member for a front mount single.
You can get a d1sc 8-rib "kit" pieced together for under $3500 and make about 550rwhp. I know because I did it. Either way you look at it though you are going to have to cut the front bumper open to get a decent intercooler on these cars unless you plan on the twin inter coolers from procahrger.. If you really want to keep it nice you can just buy an extra bumper, cut and paint it and keep yours in storage so you can always put it back on.
If you have the patience and $ your can get a front mount huron speed kit that retains a/c with a turbo k-member and you could always have a shop install it if you don't have the tools or patience for it. Honestly I was more interested in going fast then keeping it a daily so I went with a v1 kit and removed my a/c and cut the front bumper, but my car still looks pretty clean IMO.
Here is a complete kit I pieced together for $3200 with an 8-rib like 4+ years ago..
I like anything performance, so not picking on anyone personally. Just making general points…
In my experience even an 8rib kit will slip if you try to spin the blower fast enough to make decent boost. How much boost were you running? What kind of boost did it make below 4k?
In this $3500 550wph kit example…(which is still 100whp short of the goals mentioned) Did you have a cam and valve train upgrades?? Headers? Exhaust system? Gears? Converter?
Point is even at $3500, once you add in the supporting mods... cam, valve train, Long tube headers, gears,converter, and an aftermarket exhaust system. The cost can easily double. These items are all pretty much necessary to make a blower car work well. None are necessary to make a turbo car work well.
I will mull it over and talk with my shop next week. If the cost difference is that big it may be hard to pass up. I don't really want to redo my entire exhaust system for a 3rd time but I do still have the stock exhaust. I'd be doing all the labor if I go procharger. Last time I talked to these guys they were designing a system to retain A/C and stock K-member for a front mount single.
Huron speed has a proven front mount a/c kit you could just have someone change out the k-member for you. It's around $4500 with all the stuff you need...
I like anything performance, so not picking on anyone personally. Just making general points…
In my experience even an 8rib kit will slip if you try to spin the blower fast enough to make decent boost. How much boost were you running? What kind of boost did it make below 4k?
In this $3500 550wph kit example…(which is still 100whp short of the goals mentioned) Did you have a cam and valve train upgrades?? Headers? Exhaust system? Gears? Converter?
Point is even at $3500, once you add in the supporting mods... cam, valve train, Long tube headers, gears,converter, and an aftermarket exhaust system. The cost can easily double. These items are all pretty much necessary to make a blower car work well. None are necessary to make a turbo car work well.
I used this exact argument in another thread and people acted like I was an alien......cam with supporting valvetrain, intake, and exhaust adds up. That being said the only other person on my side was king talon, so I was screwed either way.
I used this exact argument in another thread and people acted like I was an alien......cam with supporting valvetrain, intake, and exhaust adds up. That being said the only other person on my side was king talon, so I was screwed either way.
Now compare A $190 shipped GT45 turbocharger bolted in place of the rear muffler assy’s. Using the factory exhaust manifolds and factory exhaust system (with cats removed), No cam required, no intercooler required. New set of shimmed LS6 valve springs is all that’s necessary. Less than $600 worth of flange’s piping, waste gate, BOV etc… Add a $200 water meth inj kit. You will have a nice power curve that makes its target boost quickly and holds through the RPM range without belt slip, without a cam, intercooler, exhaust etc…)
And, the fabrication is so easy, it practically installs itself!
I like anything performance, so not picking on anyone personally. Just making general points…
In my experience even an 8rib kit will slip if you try to spin the blower fast enough to make decent boost. How much boost were you running? What kind of boost did it make below 4k?
In this $3500 550wph kit example…(which is still 100whp short of the goals mentioned) Did you have a cam and valve train upgrades?? Headers? Exhaust system? Gears? Converter?
Point is even at $3500, once you add in the supporting mods... cam, valve train, Long tube headers, gears,converter, and an aftermarket exhaust system. The cost can easily double. These items are all pretty much necessary to make a blower car work well. None are necessary to make a turbo car work well.
I disagree. I don't see any mods you listed that you need with supercharger that you don't need with a turbo other then headers/exhaust which he already has.
And honestly I never ran the kit I pieced together because I blew the car up on n20 lol.. I hear the f-body kits suck with belt slip though so that's something else to look into. I mentioned earlier in this thread vette kits are much better. I installed kits on vette's in a weekend. Drove 8 hour round trip to dyno. Made 537rwhp on 6psi and drove it home and never had any problems out of my kits on either vette with a lot of miles on them..
I would go turbo all day, but he already seems to have a good chunk of the supporting mods for a blower and not sure he wants to work on the car much. Which with a turbo car it does require a bit more maintenance. I'm a mechanic so this doesn't bother me at all, but some don't have the tools and sometimes don't have the ability to fix problems and trouble shoot stupid little problems.
And, the fabrication is so easy, it practically installs itself! Sorry, couldn't help myself.
I hear you, there is something to be said for a true bolt-on kit! But I’ve had both, and the price/performance offset isn’t worth it with a centrifugal blower IMO.
A turbo kit may be hard to fabricate and look pretty, but many have shown us very little talent/skill is necessary to make a functional turbo kit! Don’t make me get out the pictures!
Could also watch a couple youtube videos, buy a $120 Harbor Freight 110v MIG/flux welder, and go to town yourself! You’d still me money ahead.
Originally Posted by sweet99ss
I disagree. I don't see any mods you listed that you need with supercharger that you don't need with a turbo other then headers/exhaust which he already has.
That’s not the case. A blower is RPM based. It needs RPM to work well, period. RPM is expensive.
A turbo is not RPM dependant. You can use the factory cam, valve train, and gearing with a turbo kit at low RPM and it works VERY well.
That’s not the case. A blower is RPM based. It needs RPM to work well, period. RPM is expensive.
Not with a Magnusson, Whipple, Eaton etc. As for RPM, I don't know how many of our customers are going to 7000 RPM with just a cam pushrods and double springs. And really, who is not going to put a camshaft in there anyway. Sure there are some extreme dumpster divers out there, but how many of us do they really represent?
Turbos make great power and looks like they are getting cheaper but the reason I went procharger is because it was cheaper than any equivalent quality turbo setup, and way easier to install. Sounds better too . I don't own a shop and I don't build cars for a living but I do all my own work. I bought a 10+ year old procharger kit and a Godspeed fmic off eBay for crazy cheap. Sent the procharger head unit in to have the bearings looked at and it was fine. Used stock heads but did trunion upgrade to rockers, LS6 intake, TSP FI cam, LS7, some cheap small (1 5/8) hooker super comp long tubes to ORY that I had from when I bought the car, and I ended up making 630/605 through a 4L60 trans and 9" rear. Car was 100% streetable. Drove it daily to work for the summer and ran it at the track 20x or so. I do have a built bottom end but that shouldn't matter running the 10psi I was running. Mine was just built cause it needed to be redone from the last owner's abuse and plan on pushing it harder later. I really enjoyed the setup and the installation was easy for my skill level. And as far as belt slip. I can see maybe maxing out a large head unit blower and you might get some slip, but for his goals of 650, belt slip shouldn't be an issue unless something is wrong with the setup. The new tensioner setups are amazing. Bob @ Brute Speed is a great help if you pm or email him also. Helped me a lot with my used setup.
That being said I do like the versatility of the turbo setups as far as adjusting hp up and down but it seems to me most of the turbo guys spend a lot of time tuning to get to that point. Which I don't mind myself but some people want a little more plug and play. My first time for my setup was just a mail order tune from TSP and I drove the car for a month before hitting the dyno.
I'll probably try a turbo eventually but it will be for my car I use mostly at the track. Maybe I'll change my mind then but precision turbo is about 5 minutes from my house so I know a lot of guys with turbo setups and they all have issues with tuning. Maybe none of you guys do because there may be a little more skill in here than what I see day to day but still I seem to hear about it at the track quite a bit. Proper tuning is another entire subject though lol
I hear you, there is something to be said for a true bolt-on kit! But I’ve had both, and the price/performance offset isn’t worth it with a centrifugal blower IMO.
A turbo kit may be hard to fabricate and look pretty, but many have shown us very little talent/skill is necessary to make a functional turbo kit! Don’t make me get out the pictures!
Could also watch a couple youtube videos, buy a $120 Harbor Freight 110v MIG/flux welder, and go to town yourself! You’d still me money ahead.
That’s not the case. A blower is RPM based. It needs RPM to work well, period. RPM is expensive.
A turbo is not RPM dependant. You can use the factory cam, valve train, and gearing with a turbo kit at low RPM and it works VERY well.
A blower can make great power on stock cam as well... Either of them will need springs with higher boost levels. I would agree though for high hp goals I would go turbo and not worry about the belt slip
Not with a Magnusson, Whipple, Eaton etc. As for RPM, I don't know how many of our customers are going to 7000 RPM with just a cam pushrods and double springs. And really, who is not going to put a camshaft in there anyway. Sure there are some extreme dumpster divers out there, but how many of us do they really represent?
Thought we were all talking about centrifugal blowers…Specifically in a corvette in the posts above?
Roots/screw stuff is in a different league. For the “bolt-on” basic kits they are very limited in $ vs HP department too. The typical Magnuson C5 kits are like 7k and advertise an additional 130hp whole HP over factory! Pretty underwhelming for 7k when you look at what 7k worth of turbo gets you power wise.
With turbo guys making over 800+ whp with unopened LS1 long blocks, I honestly don’t see a cam as a necessary upgrade. I owned a C5. You have to literally dismantle the whole front end to pull the balancer/timing cover. For this reason alone I wasn’t planning on a cam for my remote mount build. Someone offered me more than the car was worth, so I ended up selling before starting the kit. But I researched it quite a bit…
Originally Posted by sweet99ss
A blower can make great power on stock cam as well... Either of them will need springs with higher boost levels. I would agree though for high hp goals I would go turbo and not worry about the belt slip
Either setup will not need springs to meet the HP goal. With the right turbo setup you can make 800+whp on an LS with an LS6 valve spring and stock LS1 cam.
You’re missing the point. The blower needs RPM. It will make more boost at 6k at 4k rpm. That isn’t the case with the turbo, which will make just as much boost at 4k as it does at 6k.So the average power to the wheels over “X” amount of time is MUCH more with the turbo.
Thought we were all talking about centrifugal blowers…Specifically in a corvette in the posts above?
Roots/screw stuff is in a different league. For the “bolt-on” basic kits they are very limited in $ vs HP department too. The typical Magnuson C5 kits are like 7k and advertise an additional 130hp whole HP over factory! Pretty underwhelming for 7k when you look at what 7k worth of turbo gets you power wise.
With turbo guys making over 800+ whp with unopened LS1 long blocks, I honestly don’t see a cam as a necessary upgrade. I owned a C5. You have to literally dismantle the whole front end to pull the balancer/timing cover. For this reason alone I wasn’t planning on a cam for my remote mount build. Someone offered me more than the car was worth, so I ended up selling before starting the kit. But I researched it quite a bit…
Either setup will not need springs to meet the HP goal. With the right turbo setup you can make 800+whp on an LS with an LS6 valve spring and stock LS1 cam.
You’re missing the point. The blower needs RPM. It will make more boost at 6k at 4k rpm. That isn’t the case with the turbo, which will make just as much boost at 4k as it does at 6k.So the average power to the wheels over “X” amount of time is MUCH more with the turbo.
I'm not missing the point I get the prochargers are rpm based I've had a few lol. They pretty much run the same as an n/a car for the most part.. I also know how a turbo works I happen to have one now.
Just because a procharger makes power based on rpm doesn't mean you have to rev it to the moon. You can actually pulley down and put a waste gate on procharger setup and make 8lbs from 4krpm to 6k rpm.... Still not sure why you hung up on valve springs?? So you can't put the same ls6 springs on a procharger car and make 800hp? Again I prefer turbo's and understand all the upsides to a turbo car and IMO a turbo car is easier to make big power, but not getting your argument on the springs and such..
10-27-2016, 09:21 AM
. I don't own a shop and I don't build cars for a living but I do all my own work. I bought a 10+ year old procharger kit and a Godspeed fmic off eBay for crazy cheap. Sent the procharger head unit in to have the bearings looked at and it was fine. Used stock heads but did trunion upgrade to rockers, LS6 intake, TSP FI cam, LS7, some cheap small (1 5/8) hooker super comp long tubes to ORY that I had from when I bought the car, and I ended up making 630/605 through a 4L60 trans and 9" rear. Car was 100% streetable. Drove it daily to work for the summer and ran it at the track 20x or so. I do have a built bottom end but that shouldn't matter running the 10psi I was running. Mine was just built cause it needed to be redone from the last owner's abuse and plan on pushing it harder later. I really enjoyed the setup and the installation was easy for my skill level. And as far as belt slip. I can see maybe maxing out a large head unit blower and you might get some slip, but for his goals of 650, belt slip shouldn't be an issue unless something is wrong with the setup. The new tensioner setups are amazing. Bob @ Brute Speed is a great help if you pm or email him also. Helped me a lot with my used setup. 
