Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Short-short version: So far, having just installed the kit, it appears every issue I had was addressed, and I'm quite happy. Road tests coming soon! Anyone wanting details ont he car, it's a 99 TA, and the link in the sig has the entire build.

I want to first start by saying that I am NOT bashing any product that came off my car in favor of the UMI kit. I do not think those parts were necessarily bad, but they were a poor match for my car and my driving habits. No flaming intended by any comments. So, if you read something and immediately think "Hey, I run those, and they don't do that for me, the OP must be a moron!" That's fine, but please try to keep in mind I"m both a scientist and engineer. Pretend an emotionless cyborg made the comments. TO ME, they are all data points and nothing more

OK. Next, I need to make a HUGE shout out to Ramey at UMI. He was very patient in going over the details with me as well as searching out the dyno characteristics of many different shocks so that we picked the right ones for me. Also, while I was talking with him and describing the issues I was having with my previous suspension, he was pretty much able to predict - it did X, right?" and was spot on.

OK, the deets:

I put a set of bolt-in style Viking Warriors back in January. My first impression of them wasn't bad. I initially bought them for the adjustability to be able to correct some suspension geometery issues I was having. And they did help fix those. I felt I had lost a little ride quality, but nothing too severe. After my first day at the track, I noticed some new noises, and the car wouldn't sit level anymore, but I continued to tolerate it. I was able to adjust the coilovers to get it level again, but if you counted threads, one side was definitely tightern that the other up front. In the back, the rear was starting to sag. After a second day at the track, the noises had gotten worse - especially in the rear. I had to run the adjuster all the way to the top thread in the rear to get the body so that the bump stops had 2" of articulation. Also, the rear had picked up some side to side movement. All the noises were coming from the upper mount area of the coilovers. I don't know how many times I went under there with a torque wrench and retightened bolts, etc, and it got tot he point that even forgetting the torque wrench and using a gorilla to tighten the bolts, the noise and undesired movement were there. Wow, that was longer than I thought it would be.

Now, as to track and street performance. I'm sitting on 519 RWHP, so nothing too crazy. But, when i hit the gas, the rear of the car squats down to the bump stops. Which I had thought was good to traction, except I was rubbing inside the rear quarters. The front felt OK for the most part, but looking at some videos was actually really loose. I did notice after a hard track run, the driver side front always dropped, and I had to tighten it some more. It was definitely allowing load transfer, but it wasn't really controlling it - if that makes much sense.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

So, enter Ramey at UMI:

We spent quite a while on the phone going over options. I really at this point only knew that I didn't know anything about suspension - I bought the vikings having just read a bunch of stuff about how great they were without really filtering through to the intended use. And I was pretty sure of four things:

1. The upper mounts of my coilovers were problematic. In fact, I'll toss out there that the "bolt in" style coilovers that only use the shock stud to attach to the car are really not a solid connection. You might as well suspend the chassis with four pieces of thread rod.

2. The lack of a gas charge really made the warriors a poor choice for a daily driver. Although, I also thought some of my issue was being oversprung. Ramey explained this to me, and it makes much more sense.

3. I felt the shock was not really damping. It was either floppy or percussive, but it felt like no matter what I did, over the course of time, it just kept getting worse.

4. I didn't need a drag shock that I could daily drive. I needed a daily driving shock that I could hook and launch at the track. Big difference.

So, we discussed several options, and in the end Ramey wanted to go back and look at dyno curves of various shocks and see how they compare. What he came back with was the Strano AFCO shocks dyno very close to some of the high end rear drag shocks. He suggested that my engine could be overpowering the shocks, which actually consumes power compressing the chassis instead of transferring it to the ground. We discussed the possibility of running different springs, and I was concerned about the damper being non-compatible with the springs if I chose to run lighter springs. He explained the wide range of springs these shocks work with and that if I wanted to run various springs, I could run 200 up to 850 on the fronts with these dampers just fine.

I'm not sure how much Ramey agreed on the upper mounts being so problematic, but I do think that I was so adamant about it, he didn't bother arguing. He might have agreed and there was no point discussing it. Really not sure.

So, all said and done, I decided to run the Strano/AFCO/UMI kit as it was designed, since it was all designed to work together. That's with 600 lb springs up front and 200 lb springs int he back. For the 1/4 mile, everything on the rear should be about right. Maybe I drop to a 150 pound spring on track days or something. But I'm going to try it out how it is designed and go from there. Then up front, similarly, I can run 350 lb springs on track day and soften up the rebound to get load transfer, but without the car being all floppy and loose. I wrote down that Ramey said a 350 lb front spring is a good compromise spring and would work fine with these dampers.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

So, installation went well. There are a few things I'd like to highlight really quick, and mostly with pictures. First, here are the upper mounts up front between the two kits:

So, what I think was happening up front (bottom pic), is the entire weight of the front was basically sitting on that nut on the bottom of the mount. The mount was collapsing under the weight. And remember, I had verified at least a dozen times it was very tight. The new mount (Top Pic) is fully, solidly, mounted to the chassis. The clamping mechanism is really simple and tremendously sturdy. Also, note the conversion from stud to a through bolt, supported on both sides. This was actually easier to mount than the "bolt in" style AND it was far more solid feeling once secured.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Similar story in the rear, but I liked these upper mounts even better. They transfer the load back tot he spring perch and make for a very rigid connection in the back. I can take a million pictures, but I cannot convey how much better this feels vs before. There's a few pictures below to give you an idea of how the rears look. Dog was helping me install the rear coilovers, LOL.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

So, I took a video with one rear coilover replaced and then the other video with both rear coilovers replaced --- with the rear axle suspended by the shocks for freedom of movement. I didn't have the foresight to take a before video, but you can hear some noises in the first video and see a bit of movement. In the second video, it is SOLID, which my car had sorely been missing:

Chrisingermany

Pretty in depth review as always Darth. I have the Strano/UMI coilover on for a while now. I have had a problem with the front springs coming out of the cup up top and scraping against the side of the shock body. Only happens on the front and seems to be isolated to the drivers side. UMI mentioned moving up to a 800# spring up front to correct this. I'm curious if other are having this problem as well. I don't have many street miles on my car as it is a auto-x setup. I have had about 10 events on the coilover setup and other that the adjustable ride height they feel really close to the Strano/Bilstein HD setup I had before. I went with the coilover setup as once I put the UMI road race k-member on, the strano/bilstein setup was high in the front. Get some miles and let me know how they go.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

"But WAIT!", you say, "Those are road racing shocks and you're talking about drag racing! Cut his head off!"

Yes they are. But there are some things to keep in mind.

1. I DD 99% with 1% track. I'd rather have to do some basic tweaks and mods at the track and maybe also work a little harder vs have a track built car that I'm fighting EVERY DAY on the way to and from work, in traffic, etc. You gotta be honest about how you use your car or you won't be happy with it.

2. Go look up these shock dynos compared to the AFCO Big Gun, Viking Crusader, and some other big names in drag racing, and you'll find they don't dyno that much differently. Yes, there are differences, but they weren't as pronounced as you might think. So, I really don't think I'm giving up much. Besides, it's a high ten's car, not a low nine's car.

3. Got a friend I was talking to, and he's been talking to Menscer about setting up his car. So on a whim, he asked Menscer about my car (he told me about this today, after I've already installed the kit), and Menscer says that for my car's power, performance, etc, it's the best kit out there. So, it can't be THAT bad a drag racing suspension, now can it?

Hopefully, over the weekend, I'll get a fair amount of road testing in and report back. but, honestly, based on how different eh chassis feels, I cannot imagine I'm going to be unhappy with this decision.

I really, really appreciated the time Ramey spent with me on the phone, and my compliments to the designers of this suspension kit. Additionally, I spent some of JD-AMG's time as a neutral party to gain some perspective, and I greatly appreciate that as well.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

LOL, thanks! I haven't driven it yet, so I haven't seen that yet. But I'm expecting to really test it out this weekend. I do think I have alot less unsprung weight up front - cause I'm running tubular spindles and strange brakes. So, I might never see that problem. I was concerned 600 lb might be too much spring actually. but again, I thought better to run the kit as designed rather than to make guesses.

Edit - IDK if this matters, but check my upper mount pic in post 3. I went to some effort to make sure that the spring was clocked to that the flat part was not bridging across that gap in the upper mount. It may not matter one bit, and that was not referenced int he instructions, but I'll throw that out there.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

OK, went for a quick drive in it just now...

I made other changes at the same time, and here's the funny thing: I started driving, and by the end of my street, I was focusing on the clutch, the way the steering felt, the engine temps -- I literally FORGOT I was trying out a new suspension. Here's why...

It was quiet. There was no clunks and bangs reminding me the suspension didn't like something. it was smooth. It just rolled along. I got about three miles from home and hit a bump that I normally cringe at, and I hit it. The car felt it, I mean, come on, but it went over, no loud clunks and bangs, did one rebound and stabilized, and then I went "Oh yeah, I'm supposed to be paying attention to the ride."

But I think that says most of it right there. That it had been pissing me off for months, and I was able to forget it and just ride. As I drove, I started noticing a few things, but in truth, What I felt could possibly be corrected with rebound adjustments. Possibly, the car needs a bit lighter springs, because it is ~300# light, but I'm going to ride it like it is for a bit and see how it settles in.

For an initial drive, I'm REALLY happy with it. It feels at least as good as when I had the HD Bilsteins under it before I went coilover. That was a more fun drive than the car has been to drive in at least 18 months.

Mike Morris

iTrader: (55)

Looks like I need to get rid of my front Vikings for these

jhshnh

I think it's great your refining the car the way you want it. Only you can determine what's best for your car.

I run the double adjustable coilocer Vikings, and leave the shock settings for the drag strip even on the street... and I'll admit it isn't the best ride quality... but neither is the anti toll bar lol. But I love it and it dead hooks at the strip. I'll admit it squeaks and has the same noises you mentioned. But my car is a weekend toy.

If my car was daily driven 99% of the time like yours I would be looking to improve my ride quality no doubt. So I hope it works out for you.

00PewterSS

iTrader: (3)

I just went and inspected mine and they are fine. I zip tied the springs to the upper cup (front and rear). There are holes provided to do this for this very reason so the spring can't hop out. I would think that would prevent this from happening. You can zip tie or use wire to attach the spring to the upper cup.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I have a way to deal with fronts coming loose at droop if you want. I have tender springs, and you can run a shorter main with those (or run the current front spring if you want).

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Another drive and it feels even more better! I was deliberately looking for some of the worst bumps to see how the car takes them and it just does so nice. I can really feel how much better the control is. Car feels more planted for sure. I honestly think I gained straight line traction too. Instead of second being worthless beyond 30% throttle I was able to lay into it some and push the car. I honestly won't be surprised if its better at the track vs before.

@jshnh... I think it's the difference between a track suspension that you can drive on the street vs s great handling suspension you can also use at the track.

In a way this isn't much different from selecting a cam. You have to be very honest with yourself about how you're going to use it or you won't be happy for very long.

jhshnh

I agree, Darth. There's a difference in a daily and a weekend straight line car. You made the right move. Same thing when picking transmissions and stall converters... if you're not honest with how you use the car you'll hate the converter.

One day I'd love to build another 4th gen designed for handling with a M6

UMI Performance

iTrader: (77)

We've been super pleased with the set up we have developed with Sam.

Both Sam and myself ran our 4th gens at Gingerman this weekend for the Motor State Challenge. Sam put down a 1.440 lap time while I did 1.453. Sam's car is lacking power which would have gave him the boost to gain some time while me, I am lacking driver right now. Sam got me faster but the day came to an end before we could get more laps. We are both on the UMI/Strano shocks... different spring rates and roll centers but same shocks. They are proving to be working excellent.

Here's a video I saw Sam post-
Glad you guys like them!

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

That was right before it broke the engine. Wah, wah, wah.....

Trying to get it fixed for the UMI event next month, but it'll be tight. And the only way it would happen is because Ryan offered up his gang to help.

dojob

Best wishes on the engine replacement/repair, Sam/UMI

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

The more I drive it, the more it settles in, it seems. Don't know if there is a "settling" period or not. I was concerned about it being too much spring, but I think i made the right decision to drive it as it is designed first instead of second guessing spring rates.

My concern was that the front in particular is about 250 lbs light. That the 600's might be too much- -especially given that is about 2X the stock springs. But so far, they're confortable. It continues to impress me how well it absorbs bumps that used to make me cringe.

Sam, hats off to you on a well designed suspension.

I need to learn more, but I have a few things I'm going to try for even more improvement:

1. I have the car pretty raked right now. Mostly on accident. it just doesn't sag like it used to in the rear. Might be higher than stock in the rear, actually. So I'm going to raise the front a bit closer to stock height and then take another look at the front alignment angles. Also, might lower the rear an inch. It will still be raked, but less severely.

2. My trailing arm angles are around 10 degrees up from back to front. I'm guessing this is a bit too severe. I have other mounting positions available. but lowering the rear will reduce that angle too. Anyone know what is optimal?

I'm hesitant to mess with any of the rebound settings. I'm at 20/40 on all four corners. The control is really good right now. if I did anything, it would be to test how adjustments affect the car.

Firebirdmuscle

iTrader: (16)

Very interesting darth. I have been second guessing these Vikings myself. You have me wondering now.