What do I look for in a 454? All general help requested!
07-18-2006, 03:32 PM
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What do I look for in a 454? All general help requested! Ok, since no one ever gives enough details about what they need...
Chassis: Mid 80's Monte Carlo Sport Coupe (Stock tranny, stock rear end, etc. <- will replace those when I get the funds, after I get the car)
I'm looking to build a 454 because it's the biggest of the cheap (non ZZ or engine builder) big blocks. I would like to make at least 500 horsepower and 500 lb-ft at a relatively low rpm, and I do not intend to take this motor to high rpm, just the most I need for the cam I will need, hopefully less than 6k.
I may want to use nitrous later, if I find 500 rwhp not enough in a 3500 lb street car. What do I need to keep in mind if I want to spray this motor later down the line? Do I need a forged rotating assembly? A stronger fuel system?
Should I run fuel injection or carburetion? If it's personal preference, which will be cheaper and get the job done? Would the use of nitrous change this?
What years of engine do I look for? Gen 1, 2 etc, and what years are those best generations? For example, I read that the Gen 5 blocks can't use heads from other generations, so I should stay away from them. Does that mean I don't want to use Gen V based heads at all? earlier or later?
Where should I spend the most money? Good heads? Good aluminum heads? Light rotating assembly? Polished heads and portmatched intake?
Getting the right block in the first place?
Do I need to talk to an engine builder about this before I buy anything, and match my cam, gears, stall, et cetera?
I'm doing this on an extreme budget, as I'm the stereotypical poor teenage college student. This will be a friday night cruiser, stoplight blasts and burnouts. The nearest track is at least 90 minutes away, so I might get there once.
Are there some good current books about this that will answer many of my questions?
I need all the help I can get, so thank you in advance.
Chassis: Mid 80's Monte Carlo Sport Coupe (Stock tranny, stock rear end, etc. <- will replace those when I get the funds, after I get the car)
I'm looking to build a 454 because it's the biggest of the cheap (non ZZ or engine builder) big blocks. I would like to make at least 500 horsepower and 500 lb-ft at a relatively low rpm, and I do not intend to take this motor to high rpm, just the most I need for the cam I will need, hopefully less than 6k.
I may want to use nitrous later, if I find 500 rwhp not enough in a 3500 lb street car. What do I need to keep in mind if I want to spray this motor later down the line? Do I need a forged rotating assembly? A stronger fuel system?
Should I run fuel injection or carburetion? If it's personal preference, which will be cheaper and get the job done? Would the use of nitrous change this?
What years of engine do I look for? Gen 1, 2 etc, and what years are those best generations? For example, I read that the Gen 5 blocks can't use heads from other generations, so I should stay away from them. Does that mean I don't want to use Gen V based heads at all? earlier or later?
Where should I spend the most money? Good heads? Good aluminum heads? Light rotating assembly? Polished heads and portmatched intake?
Getting the right block in the first place?
Do I need to talk to an engine builder about this before I buy anything, and match my cam, gears, stall, et cetera?
I'm doing this on an extreme budget, as I'm the stereotypical poor teenage college student. This will be a friday night cruiser, stoplight blasts and burnouts. The nearest track is at least 90 minutes away, so I might get there once.
Are there some good current books about this that will answer many of my questions?
I need all the help I can get, so thank you in advance.
07-18-2006, 04:20 PM
#2
I'm building a big block right now, not my first. Right now I'm waiting for the machine shop to finish my parts.
It's not that hard to get 500 hp out of a 454. Usually a compression increase, cam, headers, intake, carb.
But first we need to talk about your budget. How much can you spend?
There is no 1 or 2. Big blocks up to '91 are Mark IV, '92 up to ?? is Gen V, then theres a Gen VI. If you're on a budget look for a Mark IV out of a motor home with large oval port heads. Thats the cheapest core you can get that will get you 500 hp with some work.
It's not that hard to get 500 hp out of a 454. Usually a compression increase, cam, headers, intake, carb.
But first we need to talk about your budget. How much can you spend?
There is no 1 or 2. Big blocks up to '91 are Mark IV, '92 up to ?? is Gen V, then theres a Gen VI. If you're on a budget look for a Mark IV out of a motor home with large oval port heads. Thats the cheapest core you can get that will get you 500 hp with some work.
07-18-2006, 06:36 PM
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Ballistic,
If you can stretch your budget slightly...
We offer PN 107050: 509 / 525 Merlin BBC. All Eagle forged internals, Merlin Oval Ports, hydraulic cam, 870 4150, and pump gas-friendly. The 530 or-so lb.ft. of torque will lighten the 3500 lb. burden. Dyno tested and 2 yr. warranty. We have a Merlin 454 / 454 but that's below your parameters. The 509 lists at $7495. Our Merlins are Gen IV compatible.
I'm not sure you can develop 500 WHP on $6k.
Visit www.worldcastings.com
May I say it's refreshing to see an 18 yr. old guy write with logic, perfect spelling, usage, syntax, capitalization and punctuation.
-and notlike friggendicks lke dis
Smilie Face!
Good Luck.
If you can stretch your budget slightly...
We offer PN 107050: 509 / 525 Merlin BBC. All Eagle forged internals, Merlin Oval Ports, hydraulic cam, 870 4150, and pump gas-friendly. The 530 or-so lb.ft. of torque will lighten the 3500 lb. burden. Dyno tested and 2 yr. warranty. We have a Merlin 454 / 454 but that's below your parameters. The 509 lists at $7495. Our Merlins are Gen IV compatible.
I'm not sure you can develop 500 WHP on $6k.
Visit www.worldcastings.com
May I say it's refreshing to see an 18 yr. old guy write with logic, perfect spelling, usage, syntax, capitalization and punctuation.
-and notlike friggendicks lke dis
Smilie Face!
Good Luck.
07-18-2006, 07:05 PM
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HELL! Forget everything I wrote and spend the 6 - 8K on your continuing college work.
It seems money well spent in your case and your folks can be proud.
You can use some dough on beer and chicks occasionally too.
With a 600 R you ain't exactly naive...
It seems money well spent in your case and your folks can be proud.
You can use some dough on beer and chicks occasionally too.
With a 600 R you ain't exactly naive...
07-18-2006, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 8a8mfh
But first we need to talk about your budget. How much can you spend?
The timeline right now is to buy the car in about 1 and a half to 3 months, depending how much other stuff I think I want badly or need before then, then buy a nitrous setup for the 305 in it, and after that, each paycheck will go straight into BBC engine parts, I make about $500 every two weeks, for now, anyway.
What could you do with 5 grand, and then what would you do with 7 or 8? Could you do a lot more?
I figure I'll need, in order:
- Lots of books
- Engine stand
- Block / Oil pan
- Crankshaft
- Rods / Pistons (wrist pins, rings, etc.)
- Heads, (head studs, etc.)
- Cam (custom ground)
- Intake manifold
- Fuel Injection setup or Carburetor(s)
- Headers, exhaust, fuel system, new gauges, lots more
Spark plugs, oil, gas.....
or I may just bank it all until mid winter, pull the small block, spend all the money I have toward a crate motor and put the rest on a credit card or get a personal loan for it.
MerlinPro,
That Merlin, or a lesser one, is tempting, especially with the warranty. Does that warranty include shipping both ways if something goes horribly wrong?
My financial aid is all approved, so I have complete freedom with my money for the next two years (although I need to get an apartment eventually
), and I'm not worried after that, because my auto tech program includes free certification by Toyota, which guarantees me a job when I graduate, at least $30k a year, so I can pay off my (cheap) tuition, and then go through UTI's Porsche program and start working on nice cars for real money, and maybe start building motors or working for some performance shop if I get bored.It's only a two year community college degree, I think total cost with tools will be like 8 grand. I'm glad you have the right intentions though, and you're not trying to convince me to buy your biggest and beastiest motor offering!
I love this site. How can I get more detailed information on your line of big blocks?
Last edited by Ballistic Jello; 07-18-2006 at 08:48 PM.
07-19-2006, 07:43 AM
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07-19-2006, 08:56 AM
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Yeah, I went to the site and looked at most of the links, but it seems like a lot of it is "Under Construction", so I was hoping there was a retailer with all your motors listed online, with prices, and hopefully some dyno graphs.
Thanks
Thanks
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07-19-2006, 09:13 AM
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BBC parts Things to look for:
Reccomended block would be a 289 casting 2-bolt block from the mid to late 70's. I have seen these blocks as they are take a 1000hp all day!
Look for for a GM forged steel crank (they can easily be identified by the wide casting lines vs. the sharp narrow ones of a cast steel crank).
As far as rods go, I would buy aftermarket, stock rods with 7/16 rod bolts are hard to come by anymore. Eagle make a good rod as long as you stay with th 4340 line, same goes for a the crank if want more ease to fining one.
Heads for this motor area as follows, I would lokk for the 049 or 781 casting GM oval ports. Make awesome low and mid range power, and with some port work can flow almost as goog as a rectangle up top while still retainging bottom end power.
As far a cam I would go either hydraulic roller or a solid would easily get you there to.
Hope this helps a little.
Check this site out for casting and material info:
http://www.mortec.com/
Reccomended block would be a 289 casting 2-bolt block from the mid to late 70's. I have seen these blocks as they are take a 1000hp all day!
Look for for a GM forged steel crank (they can easily be identified by the wide casting lines vs. the sharp narrow ones of a cast steel crank).
As far as rods go, I would buy aftermarket, stock rods with 7/16 rod bolts are hard to come by anymore. Eagle make a good rod as long as you stay with th 4340 line, same goes for a the crank if want more ease to fining one.
Heads for this motor area as follows, I would lokk for the 049 or 781 casting GM oval ports. Make awesome low and mid range power, and with some port work can flow almost as goog as a rectangle up top while still retainging bottom end power.
As far a cam I would go either hydraulic roller or a solid would easily get you there to.
Hope this helps a little.
Check this site out for casting and material info:
http://www.mortec.com/
07-19-2006, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by midwestT/A
Things to look for:
Reccomended block would be a 289 casting 2-bolt block from the mid to late 70's. I have seen these blocks as they are take a 1000hp all day!
Look for for a GM forged steel crank (they can easily be identified by the wide casting lines vs. the sharp narrow ones of a cast steel crank).
As far as rods go, I would buy aftermarket, stock rods with 7/16 rod bolts are hard to come by anymore. Eagle make a good rod as long as you stay with th 4340 line, same goes for a the crank if want more ease to fining one.
Heads for this motor area as follows, I would lokk for the 049 or 781 casting GM oval ports. Make awesome low and mid range power, and with some port work can flow almost as goog as a rectangle up top while still retainging bottom end power.
As far a cam I would go either hydraulic roller or a solid would easily get you there to.
Hope this helps a little.
Check this site out for casting and material info:
http://www.mortec.com/
Reccomended block would be a 289 casting 2-bolt block from the mid to late 70's. I have seen these blocks as they are take a 1000hp all day!
Look for for a GM forged steel crank (they can easily be identified by the wide casting lines vs. the sharp narrow ones of a cast steel crank).
As far as rods go, I would buy aftermarket, stock rods with 7/16 rod bolts are hard to come by anymore. Eagle make a good rod as long as you stay with th 4340 line, same goes for a the crank if want more ease to fining one.
Heads for this motor area as follows, I would lokk for the 049 or 781 casting GM oval ports. Make awesome low and mid range power, and with some port work can flow almost as goog as a rectangle up top while still retainging bottom end power.
As far a cam I would go either hydraulic roller or a solid would easily get you there to.
Hope this helps a little.
Check this site out for casting and material info:
http://www.mortec.com/
That does help, quite a bit actually, this is the kind of information I'm looking for.
Eagle 454 4" 4340 Steel Crank Chevy Crankshaft BB BBC - this is $619 shipped
NEW IN BOX EAGLE 4340 FORGED STEEL CRANKSHAFT FOR BIG BLOCK CHEVY - this is $769 shipped
Are these the same?
More questions:
It seems that I should stay with a hydraulic roller, so I don't have to play with the valves, because I will be staying at relatively low rpm, do you agree?
Second, do I need forged pistons to run a 200 or 300 hit of nitrous on this motor? What brand should I look for?
Should I have an engine builder check over all my parts before I start assembling the motor?
Last edited by Ballistic Jello; 07-19-2006 at 12:25 PM.
07-19-2006, 04:12 PM
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What about these heads?
Chevrolet 454 Heads Oval Port 336781
These are what I should be looking for?
I emailed to ask about some pictures..
Chevrolet 454 Heads Oval Port 336781
These are what I should be looking for?
I emailed to ask about some pictures..
07-19-2006, 06:27 PM
#11
Heres a good article on a .060 over 454 (468) build up using a 70's core engine, 781 heads, and nothing special, etc pushing an estimated 650hp.
http://www.maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm
http://www.maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm
07-19-2006, 09:30 PM
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500 hp on a 454 doesn't require $6000+. As already stated, a 2-bolt main is all you need. Cast crank will work but if you intend to give it some nos, then forged would be nice. Some oval port heads, not rectangular will fit the bill. Then just get the rest of the parts to match. Look at car magazines from the last few years (hint: library) and see what has already been tried and true.
P.S. I just happen to have a set of 781 heads professionally ported by Goodwin Performance. Also Competition Products is a good, cheap place to buy speed parts. They are locally for me. Google them, they also advertise in Car Craft and Hot Rod.
P.S. I just happen to have a set of 781 heads professionally ported by Goodwin Performance. Also Competition Products is a good, cheap place to buy speed parts. They are locally for me. Google them, they also advertise in Car Craft and Hot Rod.
07-19-2006, 10:05 PM
#13
Here a link to competition products, the page goes to the lifters I will be using but there is a catalog list on the left.
http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...umber=651080DL
http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...umber=651080DL
07-20-2006, 12:39 AM
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Anyone familiar with Reher Morrison Engine Assembly books?
Reher Morrison Engine Assembly books at Competition Products
They're 95 bucks, but they could easily be worth it, since I have absolutely no experience.
Thanks for all the help so far, I've read what everyone wrote and I've gone to and looked at all the web links, I'm in over my head here, so you guys that know anything about building motors are helping a lot. For example, is $175 too much for oval port 781 heads?
I'm pretty sure now that I'm gonna build myself a motor, I don't think I could live with myself if I just went into debt on a crate motor, it's way cooler to build the motor for your street rod, I feel.
The best information and the latest technology from Reher Morrison's staff of expert head porters, machinists and assemblers. We're sure you'll agree that these are the most complete and accurate "How-to" racing engine books ever written. Includes both volumes, "Upper Engine Assembly" and "Lower Engine Assembly".
They're 95 bucks, but they could easily be worth it, since I have absolutely no experience.
Thanks for all the help so far, I've read what everyone wrote and I've gone to and looked at all the web links, I'm in over my head here, so you guys that know anything about building motors are helping a lot. For example, is $175 too much for oval port 781 heads?
I'm pretty sure now that I'm gonna build myself a motor, I don't think I could live with myself if I just went into debt on a crate motor, it's way cooler to build the motor for your street rod, I feel.
