spray

I bought a used 421 Dart engine with 18 degree heads for under $10,000 complete without carb ( including fogger ) Ran 9.22 @ 157 on its first pass with a small shot in it. The engine is very reliable and has propelled my car to 8.30's @ over 165mph without any issues. I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing. You want to go really fast and have a limited budget?? SBC is the only choice!

JAY ROD

iTrader: (1)

Sure the lsx costs more but the question was sbc vs lsx.kind of like cassette vs cd.Right now if money is not the issue you can build a killer more powerful motor with up to date technology with an lsx.Years from now people will be calling lsx motors dated when something better comes along.I know people who still build flat head fords,and go to swap meets looking for 8 tracks.haha.j/k.JAY

spray

Your probably right. IMHO though as long as SBC is more reliable, makes more power and is more cost effective then there will be a strong market for them. The same technology for induction (and even some better stuff) is available for SBC at a very good price. IMHO until the LSX engines break new gound in power production and performance then will be just like most interstates...under construction.

Darracq

iTrader: (1)

If you want a 10 or 11 sec car and it isnt to heavy then lsx is the way to go in my oppion. throw a good cam in, get a good converter and your there. You can do that with a sbc. Heads alone will cost more than the whole lsx, sure you might have to search for a good price on a ls1,lq4

JimboManJones

LOL, where are you buying your sbc heads? Your getting riped, haha.

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

Quicken how can you make that statment? more power for less money? Lets get the the core of the statement , how much more money are you talking about? Lets take the smog crap off and not worry about sniffers. You and i have two nice peices , i know what i have in mine but i used the best stuff period, and i know what the sbc peices would run and it aint much cheaper at all if it is even cheaper... there are Budget builds for everything. Dont forget the Stock LS1 peices are proven to hold. Stock SBC peices arent.

Ok lets touch on the head bolt issue and pushing water.
yep it happens, it also happens on fords but they still make power as well.
Now lets not forget to consider the new blocks coming out and are out like the warhawk with added head bolt bosses and the matching heads. Sure the block and heads cost a bit more , but the tech is so much further advanced than that of the SBC, which is why they make more power. Even if it is an iron block look at the head designs.

thats a bold statement.
yes SBC is cheaper to build. yes the dollar per hp is less on the sbc.

are you out of your mind?
lets get real here 500rwhp in a SBC isnt the same as 500rwhp in an lsx.
an LSX isnt getting taxed like the SBC is, that means longer life for the LSX than SBC.
Have you not seen what W2W is producing or what other member are putting down not only on the dyno but on the track?

Where are you referencing your information from?
yeah yeah yeah SBC have been around since the dawn of time and yes they are proven, but to say an lsx isnt proven and never will surpass a SBC is just crazy. LSX's are doing more than thought possible from SBC's everyday.


huh? they suck but they also respond better ??

maybe you should talk with Speed Inc. about that...

Marc 85Z28,I dont know you but some of your statements are way over the top , and its obvious to me you are extremly bias.

Can someone show me these SBC's that own all?

jking

Yep..

JAY ROD

iTrader: (1)

I think what is going on here is a pissing contest."my sbc is better than any ls1".My 85 iroc can handle better than the new Z06",bla bla bla.I have to hand it to these sbc guys.They sure are loyal.J

spray

No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation.

Notime383

iTrader: (6)

[No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation]

I agree, LSX is just a SBC with 12 DEG heads! I'd like to go with the LSX but I think at the end it would cost more! Even in a EFI set-up! Those Darton sleeved blocks cost more than a Dart SBC block! A cnc ported set of AFR 225'S+ w/intake etc.. cost close to a SB2 Topend! The technology in the stock LSX is better but at the end it's almost the same! Whats your preference, how much money do you have!

Notime383

iTrader: (6)

[QUOTE=Notime383][No offense but if you are taking maximum effort only. The SBC wins in power production, reliiability and cost/hp. I am sure in time LSX will surpass the SBC but IMHO it isn't there just yet. BTW I hate to tell you....an LSX is a SBC. Just the newer better version. In stock and mild performance applications nothing beats an LSX engine for smoothness, power and emmisions. Both LSX and SBC are 90degree pushrod V8's with over head valves. Just an observation]

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

I guess since the gen 1 sbc is so much more relible and produces more power than the gen 3 & 4 , these guys with all out drag cars should just get a clue and replace there record setting lsx's with gen1 sbc's... I guess even the rags on the magazine racks are also wrong.....
are gen1's great, absolutely . if it is what you can afford while doing a budget build there is nothing wrong with that. but some the statements that have been made is this thread are false & can be proven false from the information on this website..

spray

There have been false statements about SBC here too. A Dart block SBC chevy 11 degree engine will run over your stroker LSX LS7 at whatever cubes you choose and will do it for less money. Its not as cool. It is old school. It is simple. It is easy. The LSX is considered everything the SBC isn't and thats ok but if you want to be objective you have just get off this site and look at all the info. All the prices. Be objective. Both engines have their pluses and minuses. I am now building an LSX engine myself so I am not against it but my SBC engine is still an excellent bargin!

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

Bias, no. See sig, I own both.

The SBC as you stated has been around for decades. It is the most ubiquitous performance engine in history, and will continue to be so for a long time. Even as fast as the LS1 market is advancing, by the time the LS1 comes close to catching up we will have moved onto something else - maybe not even an internal combustion engine.

I've seen SBCs do things on the track and on the street that no LS1, or its derivative, has achieved to date. And this is basing just firsthand eyewitness accounts (SBC) vs a MUCH BROADER sampling including eyewitness and the internet for the LS1. Just take a good look into the 10.5 Outlaw classes, and see how even the worlds fastest and quickest LSX pales in comparison against some of the other SBCs - 35MPH+ difference.

2 years ago I watched a SBC based engine run down the quarter mile in under 6 seconds. Can an LS1 do that? I can buy turn key, fully warrantied (2+ years, no core) 650HP SBC engine for under $10K. Can you buy a similar LS1? Naturally aspirated SBCs have eclipsed the 1000HP mark, and lived to repeat it in a race environment. Can an LS1 do that?

There are aftermarket SBC heads that outflow anything in the LS1 market. There are stronger SBC blocks than anything offered in the LS1 market. I can go on and on.

Unfortunately I am not an internet god and cannot provide proof of everything at will. Give me some time, and I can back up everything, with those all important links

JAY ROD

iTrader: (1)

Hey spray, tell ya what.I will build my lsx using off the shelf g.m parts,nothing aftermarket-all g.m part numbers.you build your small block in the same fashion.no gmpp.all stock production parts.This is where I am coming from.Just because your dart block is cheaper than my world block doesn't mean sbc is better than lsx.Lets go bug the ford guys now.j/k/J

spray

Jay Rod, In stock form I agree the LSX engines are far superior. I stated that three posts before this one. I am only discussing maximum effort engines. In stock form there is no contest. LSX all the way!

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

Building a carb'd LSX isnt much more than a Carb'd Gen1 if using equal parts. That is a fact and not fiction.

my heads are 11deg, all things being equal, the price of the engines themselfs would be very similar. Are we talking Carb'd or EFI?
Cause if you are talking Carb'd VS. EFI in the 11deg head face off , i would bet money on mine
with 11deg heads isnt that turning a gen 1 into a semi-gen 3/4 clone?

6's that fast....... no that F@cking flying.... heres a little 352ci lsx that made it into the 6's http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-Casper-2.aspx yep its only 352ci....... think of what a larger CI tht is set up would do , i'd say it would give that under 6 second car a run for its money. can you dig up the info on that car and run?
there are quite a few 1k+ RWHP lsx out there and more and more everyday, and yep alot of them are diven on the street. MM used his as a daily driver.. i could post more examples if needed. or just search the fourm

http://www.etheads.com/mainpage.htm
thats just one company, with there non custom ports on there own castings
My heads have been reworked by them and the intake as well for maximum efficency
http://electronic-pr.com/pr/arch_wp_366.html
And i also remember reading about another block soon to be released but it escapes me.

Marc 85Z28 i know it seem like i might be picking on you but i'm not i promise.
I also did read where you are not an internet god

If a Gen 1 is all someone can afford its understandable. But keep in mind these are Air Pumps nothing else and the Gen 3&4 are by far more efficent than the Gen 1 or Gen 2..

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

What is the spec of this 650 horse SBC? What are specs on the 1000hp N/A SBC

Tony Mamo has a set of AFR heads on a stock bottom end ls1 with ALL the bolt -ons and makes 480 RWHP at 15% loss that would be 552 at the flywheel or close to it, id say that is much less than 10k... And there are people doing more than that for less...........

again not picking a fight i jiust want to know where these facts you are stating come from

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

1000HP SBC:

472", Dart Iron Eagle Tall Deck Block w/Splayed Billet Caps • CFE Custom Pro Stock Truck style heads w/2.250" & 1.600" Titanium Valves • Callies 4.250" Stroke 4340 Magnum Crank • Oliver 6.125" Steel Billet Rods • Custom 15.5-1 .043/.043/3mm Gas Ported Pistons • CFE Sheet Metal Intake w/2 Dominator Carbs • Custom Roller Cam w/BBC Journals • Jesel Pro Series Custom Shaft Rockers • Moroso Custom Aluminum Pan & Pump • ATI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • MSD Electronic Ignition w/Moroso Shielded Wires

650HP SBC (pump gas friendly, streetable engine, not max effort by any means):

434"
645 @ 6400 RPM
Torque lbs/ft 580 @ 4600 RPM
Bore & Stroke 4.155 x 4.000
Comp Ratio 10.5 - 1
Block Dart Little "M" 4-Bolt Block w/Splayed Caps
Heads Fully CNC Ported Brodix M2 Aluminum, ARP head studs
Valves 2.080/1.600 Severe Duty Stainless Steel
Crank Eagle 4340 4.000" Forged Steel
Rods Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam Forged Steel
Pistons Mahle Custom Coated 10.5-1 Forged Aluminum
Camshaft Comp Cams Custom "Street Roller"
Lifters Comp Cams Solid Roller
Timing Set Cloyes Tru Roller w/Torrington Bearing
Rocker Arms Crane Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers
Intake Manifold Stage 1 Merlin Dominator
Valve Covers Polished Cast Aluminum w/Logo
Oil Pan Moroso Pro Series Windage Pan
Balancing Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly
Assembly Professionally Blueprinted and Assembled

Like I said I've got the proof, just need some time to polish my internet skills. And I am fully aware of what AFR has achieved, as what many others have dome that have posted the results on this site. That being said, I'm still nowhere near convinced that the LS1 is even close to equal of the SBCs potential.

There are several big name engine builders that specialize in extreme high output SBCs and BBCs that are getting into the LS1 market. Most if not all of their offerings are 427", and put out around 650HP, so they can make the power. But they cost around $30,000. Both engines listed above can be purchased with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty for less than $11,000

Remember the videos of the quick EVO from your home state of Florida a few months back? The built blown/turbo Cobras couldn't keep up, the big inch and boosted LS1s looked silly... The only car to beat him on the street was a SBC...

Edit: Now I'll REALLY ruffle some feathers around here. Dollar for dollar, the SBC beats the LS1 hands down. Even the SBF has been pushed farther than the LS1 likely ever will.

black84z28

look at your sig...you have an 11 sec gen3 verses your mid 12 sec gen1....no way are you going 11s on a gen1 in an f body with just a cam change...how many cam only gen 1 cars are in the low 11s?....face it...the stock heads on a gen1 are crap compared to anything stock in the gen 3 offering....**** man...look at what the L92 heads are...330cfm stock out of the box and with work over 370cfm easy.....the stock ls1 heads are just so much better than any gen1 head ever...my friends 2000 camaro has run a 11.1@128 with a cam/exhaust and nitrous....my 84 would have never came that close to that time with the same mods and double the nitrous...the gen 3 is just a way better designed motors...

you can't really compare a 50+yr old motor's aftermarket to one that is around 10 yrs old and expect it to be as cheap...the parts are coming down in price and i'll gladly pay the extra cash for parts that can gain me 50rwhp easily after an install