SBCvsLS1??
#41
I'm having a hard time figuring out how to post these quotes,but Marc85Z28 said it best! I have/will build both and I have nothing against either (both are great engines), but the LSX is more dollars to build, peroid! Pick which ever you want, it comes down to preference, avaliability, and $$$$$'s! I think too much emphasiss goes into these comparisons when all that matters is (everything else being equal vehicle/weight/tire etc..)who won the race! Guy's wanna argue on how you went 8's! Tech stuff is great! But you'll spend 2 years arguing what a simple race will answer! Both can go 400HP-1500HP, and because the SBC has done a wonderful job of "keeping up" with the LSX's you can build'em both any color/size/shape you want! Out the box the LSX's are better HP/$ but one would expect that from a engine born in 1997 vs a 1950's eng! But all out you'll argue all day with the SBC having a little edge ! I have both in my garage and wouldn't mind building either, just gotta get creative and see which one will make more sense $$ wise! Isn't that all that matters? $$$'s and creativeness!
#42
Originally Posted by black84z28
look at your sig...you have an 11 sec gen3 verses your mid 12 sec gen1....no way are you going 11s on a gen1 in an f body with just a cam change...
Secondly, the current motor in the 85 was a budget motor that I built in high school and removed from the car to put in my S10. I built a 350ci gen 1 SBC that would wear my LS1 out like a $5 *****, and did so fairly cheap. Used ZZ4 shortblock with TRW pistons (11:1 compression), with AFR 195 heads cleaned up, a hyd flat tappet Comp XE284, with a Performer RPM intake and good exhaust the car went 11 flat with ease. Unfortunately a nitrous solenoid failed and chunked 3 pistons, and severely damaged the engine.
BTW - the engine you see in the sig for my 85 cost me less than $2000. Jasper rebuilt 350 came with the World Products S/R heads on a 010 block bored .030" over for $1250. I lightly cleaned up the heads myself and port matched, added the larger cam, valvetrain, intake, carb, and exhaust all for under a grand total of $2000. LS1 fans, suck on that! Car runs mid 12s, which is more than enough to embarass many bolt-on LS1s.
#43
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
There are Top Stock, stock specification 305s running 10s in the 3rd gen chassis. Thats right - not a typo. 10s down the quarter, in a stock headed, "stock spec" cam 305ci in a 3rd gen Camaro.
it still comes down to the fact the newer gen3 is a much better motor than a gen1...there is a reason why gm spent the money to redesign the old design small block
while your motor in your car might embarass some ls1s my friends before a ms4 cam change was running low 12s with bolt ons a small cam and slicks
Last edited by black84z28; 12-24-2006 at 10:22 PM.
#44
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
1000HP SBC:
472", Dart Iron Eagle Tall Deck Block w/Splayed Billet Caps • CFE Custom Pro Stock Truck style heads w/2.250" & 1.600" Titanium Valves • Callies 4.250" Stroke 4340 Magnum Crank • Oliver 6.125" Steel Billet Rods • Custom 15.5-1 .043/.043/3mm Gas Ported Pistons • CFE Sheet Metal Intake w/2 Dominator Carbs • Custom Roller Cam w/BBC Journals • Jesel Pro Series Custom Shaft Rockers • Moroso Custom Aluminum Pan & Pump • ATI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • MSD Electronic Ignition w/Moroso Shielded Wires
472", Dart Iron Eagle Tall Deck Block w/Splayed Billet Caps • CFE Custom Pro Stock Truck style heads w/2.250" & 1.600" Titanium Valves • Callies 4.250" Stroke 4340 Magnum Crank • Oliver 6.125" Steel Billet Rods • Custom 15.5-1 .043/.043/3mm Gas Ported Pistons • CFE Sheet Metal Intake w/2 Dominator Carbs • Custom Roller Cam w/BBC Journals • Jesel Pro Series Custom Shaft Rockers • Moroso Custom Aluminum Pan & Pump • ATI Harmonic Balancer • Internally Balanced • MSD Electronic Ignition w/Moroso Shielded Wires
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
650HP SBC (pump gas friendly, streetable engine, not max effort by any means):
434"
645 @ 6400 RPM
Torque lbs/ft 580 @ 4600 RPM
Bore & Stroke 4.155 x 4.000
Comp Ratio 10.5 - 1
Block Dart Little "M" 4-Bolt Block w/Splayed Caps
Heads Fully CNC Ported Brodix M2 Aluminum, ARP head studs
Valves 2.080/1.600 Severe Duty Stainless Steel
Crank Eagle 4340 4.000" Forged Steel
Rods Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam Forged Steel
Pistons Mahle Custom Coated 10.5-1 Forged Aluminum
Camshaft Comp Cams Custom "Street Roller"
Lifters Comp Cams Solid Roller
Timing Set Cloyes Tru Roller w/Torrington Bearing
Rocker Arms Crane Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers
Intake Manifold Stage 1 Merlin Dominator
Valve Covers Polished Cast Aluminum w/Logo
Oil Pan Moroso Pro Series Windage Pan
Balancing Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly
Assembly Professionally Blueprinted and Assembled
434"
645 @ 6400 RPM
Torque lbs/ft 580 @ 4600 RPM
Bore & Stroke 4.155 x 4.000
Comp Ratio 10.5 - 1
Block Dart Little "M" 4-Bolt Block w/Splayed Caps
Heads Fully CNC Ported Brodix M2 Aluminum, ARP head studs
Valves 2.080/1.600 Severe Duty Stainless Steel
Crank Eagle 4340 4.000" Forged Steel
Rods Eagle 4340 6.000" H-Beam Forged Steel
Pistons Mahle Custom Coated 10.5-1 Forged Aluminum
Camshaft Comp Cams Custom "Street Roller"
Lifters Comp Cams Solid Roller
Timing Set Cloyes Tru Roller w/Torrington Bearing
Rocker Arms Crane Gold 1.6 Roller Rockers
Intake Manifold Stage 1 Merlin Dominator
Valve Covers Polished Cast Aluminum w/Logo
Oil Pan Moroso Pro Series Windage Pan
Balancing Internally Balanced Rotating Assembly
Assembly Professionally Blueprinted and Assembled
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
That being said, I'm still nowhere near convinced that the LS1 is even close to equal of the SBCs potential.
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
There are several big name engine builders that specialize in extreme high output SBCs and BBCs that are getting into the LS1 market. Most if not all of their offerings are 427", and put out around 650HP, so they can make the power. But they cost around $30,000. Both engines listed above can be purchased with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty for less than $11,000.
BUT if i had went with eagle (like the engine you have listed above) and some other brands it can be done for half or less.
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
Remember the videos of the quick EVO from your home state of Florida a few months back? The built blown/turbo Cobras couldn't keep up, the big inch and boosted LS1s looked silly... The only car to beat him on the street was a SBC....
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
Edit: Now I'll REALLY ruffle some feathers around here. Dollar for dollar, the SBC beats the LS1 hands down. Even the SBF has been pushed farther than the LS1 likely ever will.
again why are people racing lsx's? coolness factor, i aint buying that cause in the end its about power ,relibility and winning
#45
I am with KHShapiro.This other guy who thinks a stock headed 305 can hurl a 3rd gen camaro in the 10's n/a is a joker.My buddy who raced his 84 z/28 spent 8k at beatty n woods on his 355 and his best time was a 12.40.He had 450h.p and his car was lightened.I guess Mark knows where all the good swap meets are cause I never heard of someone building anything with a zz bottom end with afr heads plus intake and carb etc for 2k.Good luck in your quest for h.p and merry x-mas everyone.
#46
Originally Posted by Marc 85Z28
BTW - the engine you see in the sig for my 85 cost me less than $2000. Jasper rebuilt 350 came with the World Products S/R heads on a 010 block bored .030" over for $1250. I lightly cleaned up the heads myself and port matched, added the larger cam, valvetrain, intake, carb, and exhaust all for under a grand total of $2000. LS1 fans, suck on that! Car runs mid 12s, which is more than enough to embarass many bolt-on LS1s.
Can you hyper link the site that sell that 650 FWHP Gen 1 SBC i would like to read about it more. And the 1000hp n/a as well thanks.
#47
Originally Posted by spray
I bought a used 421 Dart engine with 18 degree heads for under $10,000 complete without carb ( including fogger ) Ran 9.22 @ 157 on its first pass with a small shot in it. The engine is very reliable and has propelled my car to 8.30's @ over 165mph without any issues. I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing. You want to go really fast and have a limited budget?? SBC is the only choice!
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples
#48
i can get a used 6 liter lq9 from a truck and get some l92 heads and l76 intake for cheap and get an easy 450rwhp car from that....it would cost more for me to build a gen 1 because i would have to start with everything new...
#49
instead of talking about cars and there e.t's. lets discuss the engines merits and the question of the lsx vs sbc gen1's. this is a lively debate and I hope it is continuous in its spirit.
#50
You'll argue till your blue! Both can be built upto 1000+HP if you got the doe! Forget about, who got this cheaper and who got that! If I wanna go 8's either motor is more than capable, and both will cost about the same give or take a few! The LSX is new Technology (a little more expensive) and it's way ahead of the 50's style GEN 1 SBC, so there's no arguing that! That being said, The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared!
LSX= SBC with good heads!
Check out some of those: SB2-18DEG, 12 DEG, ETC.. equipped Gen 1 SBC's!
LSX= SBC with good heads!
Check out some of those: SB2-18DEG, 12 DEG, ETC.. equipped Gen 1 SBC's!
#51
lsx does not equal a gen1 sbc with good heads. you can semi clone the ls series onn the gen1 but it isn't the same.
the oiling and bay to bay breathing is much better in the ls series not to mention less friction within the block.
the oiling and bay to bay breathing is much better in the ls series not to mention less friction within the block.
#52
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
you bought a used engine, ofcourse its going to be cheaper than building new. i know you know that i just want to make it clear for people that happen to stumble upon this thread and use this as a crutch saying Gen1's are sooo much cheaper to build.
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples
There is no reasoning with you guys so I give up. LSX is the greatest engine ever concieved by man. It is better then a nuclear reactor and makes more power and is more efficient. OK? You win! Now do you want to race my SBC? Since its inferior and old and used maybe I can get a few cars from you?
#53
Originally Posted by spray
There is no reasoning with you guys so I give up. LSX is the greatest engine ever concieved by man. It is better then a nuclear reactor and makes more power and is more efficient. OK? You win! Now do you want to race my SBC? Since its inferior and old and used maybe I can get a few cars from you?
maybe you didnt get everything you wanted from santa today?
Originally Posted by spray
I am now building and LSX engine and in order to achieve the same performance level I am already over the $20,000 mark and climbing.
Originally Posted by spray
Now do you want to race my SBC?
Every real racer knows (doesnt matter if its bracket or street)its not the car with the most power car that wins, its the one that is set up correctly and has a better driver.
So when its all said and done i would be more than happy to line up with you win, lose or draw.
Originally Posted by spray
...........maybe I can get a few cars from you?
I am not bashing anyone and i also hope that Marc 85Z28 doesnt feel that i am.
i would like more researchable facts instead of blind posts
and i will continue to post as long as there are also post and threads that the Gen1 SBC is the end all of all the SBC's
#54
Notime383, i do to a point agree with your statement that "The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared" , to a point.
Anyone one have a few dyno graphs to post so we can compare the two , similar ci and build specs should be paired for comparison....
Since there are a hand full of carb'd ls's out there any EFI Gen'1 would be great as well. we could also do all sorts of FI to compare as well. I think this would be very intersting to compare the curves.
Anyone one have a few dyno graphs to post so we can compare the two , similar ci and build specs should be paired for comparison....
Since there are a hand full of carb'd ls's out there any EFI Gen'1 would be great as well. we could also do all sorts of FI to compare as well. I think this would be very intersting to compare the curves.
#55
Those engine specs were pulled directly out of Scott Shafiroff's catalog.
And yes, there are Top Stock and Super Stock 305ci 3rd gens running 10s. They do in fact run stock casting cylinder heads, and "stock spec" camshaft, quotes being there for a very important reason TS/SS is no secret, the rules can easily be obtained from NHRA and records for displacement and chassis can also be obtained from NHRA. Or just go to a local track that has TS/SS racing, and ask around. Oh wait, you want links (10 second Google search):
http://www.nhra.com/2004/sportsman/n...er/121401.html
http://www.shopoutdoors.com/b&lracing.htm (9 second 305)
These cars posted above only must produce a certain specified HP rating set by NHRA (current is 258HP for 305s I believe). They also achieve these feats with an ungodly amount of restrictions. So next time anyone wants to dog a stock headed 305 Camaro, shut your mouth.
Yes, the LS1 is superior in stock trim. GM agrees, so do you, so do I. But GM is not in the business of SBC maximum performance. My arguement, as was the original posters, is that the SBC has more potential. Nowhere did I ever state anything about stock vs stock. Anyone who uses this point to validate any further arguement is invited to promptly leave this post, as they do not belong here.
LOL! I'm glad you liked my SBF comment. But go ahead, and refuse to look anywhere but the LS1 market and this internet site and base all opinions on it. I dare you KHShapiro, to attend any Fun Ford event or any NMRA event. If you're not completely humbled by what they are doing with the SBF vs the LS1, I'll reimburse you for the admission costs - seriously.
Finally, I'll add that anyone who feels the need to argue any further get off the computer and actually visit a local track that hosts 10.5 Outlaw racing, which I believe shows a very good representation of what is being done in the extreme high performance world - much unlike what you'll find at LS1Tech.com.
And yes, there are Top Stock and Super Stock 305ci 3rd gens running 10s. They do in fact run stock casting cylinder heads, and "stock spec" camshaft, quotes being there for a very important reason TS/SS is no secret, the rules can easily be obtained from NHRA and records for displacement and chassis can also be obtained from NHRA. Or just go to a local track that has TS/SS racing, and ask around. Oh wait, you want links (10 second Google search):
http://www.nhra.com/2004/sportsman/n...er/121401.html
http://www.shopoutdoors.com/b&lracing.htm (9 second 305)
These cars posted above only must produce a certain specified HP rating set by NHRA (current is 258HP for 305s I believe). They also achieve these feats with an ungodly amount of restrictions. So next time anyone wants to dog a stock headed 305 Camaro, shut your mouth.
Yes, the LS1 is superior in stock trim. GM agrees, so do you, so do I. But GM is not in the business of SBC maximum performance. My arguement, as was the original posters, is that the SBC has more potential. Nowhere did I ever state anything about stock vs stock. Anyone who uses this point to validate any further arguement is invited to promptly leave this post, as they do not belong here.
LOL! I'm glad you liked my SBF comment. But go ahead, and refuse to look anywhere but the LS1 market and this internet site and base all opinions on it. I dare you KHShapiro, to attend any Fun Ford event or any NMRA event. If you're not completely humbled by what they are doing with the SBF vs the LS1, I'll reimburse you for the admission costs - seriously.
Finally, I'll add that anyone who feels the need to argue any further get off the computer and actually visit a local track that hosts 10.5 Outlaw racing, which I believe shows a very good representation of what is being done in the extreme high performance world - much unlike what you'll find at LS1Tech.com.
#56
JAY ROD - drink too much egg nog?
1. 305 Camaros run 9s. See link above.
2. Quote where I said I built a AFR headed ZZ4 shortblock engine for $2K. I clearly stated that price for another engine. How you missed that, I don't know.
3. Your buddy can't build a car obvisouly.
4. See the last paragraph in the above post.
1. 305 Camaros run 9s. See link above.
2. Quote where I said I built a AFR headed ZZ4 shortblock engine for $2K. I clearly stated that price for another engine. How you missed that, I don't know.
3. Your buddy can't build a car obvisouly.
4. See the last paragraph in the above post.
#58
Originally Posted by xdamxincx
all i have to say is this khshapiro has no idea what he is talking about . and looks like he is just making things up as he goes.. thats just my lil .02
Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.
#59
wow...i guess my stock headed cammed 305 was a capable 10sec ride (if it was a full out race car)
so where is info of a stock headed 305 that can make the power like the above combo i stated in another post and do it n/a for under 3.5k
i rather have a better designed motor with a good efi set up like the one i plan on building
so where is info of a stock headed 305 that can make the power like the above combo i stated in another post and do it n/a for under 3.5k
i rather have a better designed motor with a good efi set up like the one i plan on building
Last edited by black84z28; 12-26-2006 at 01:52 AM.
#60
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.
Let's not get into reliability either. Show me any LS1 that has crossed the half million mile mark, untouched. I've seen countless Caprice taxi's that were ex-police vehicles with 300K, 400K, even over 500K miles on the stock SBC, and still running strong. And those vehicles lived anything but an easy life.