SBCvsLS1??
9 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
So I have a question for you guys who believe the LSX is superior to everything else. What about a W8 SBD. Nothing and I mean nothing makes more power then a W8 headed small block dodge. W8 motor makes way more power then a hemi or wedge. It isn't cheap to build but an SB2.2 headed SBC is 100hp behind it. They are very durable and for resale there is nothing better so your cost of ownership is low. Usually a good W8 motor will cost you what an LSX will ( about $30,000) but if you don't completely destroy it you will get $20000 for it used and running all day every day. So lets hear about it. What makes the LSX superior in both dollars and power over this engine. BTW I still disagree ... I think SBC is still ahead of LSX. I am only building one because I have had one offered to me free of charge. My Friend at Cdn Performance (Sled28) wants to build a max effort engine and he knows I have the car and skills to get the most out of it!
BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.
BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.
9 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Oh yes, To the guy who wants to race dynos you are on crack. There are engines that make far less power then others and run faster. You build a race engine to race it! Not dyno it and stare at it like Art! Don't believe the hype!
For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples!
For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples!
i tried to do a google search for Scott Shafiroff's catalog and could not find anything, can you post a link.
i still can not find any info about the 1000hp n/a sbc, but again i am only performing a google search.
So i'd consider that ball one.
your second strike i need to research. so until i can its still a strike
The parts price difference,stock for stock we know the ls1 stuff is better, thats not in question, correct? Depending on which vendor you go to there can be a 200-400 dollar difference most cranks untill you reach the top where they equal out. Rod, bout the same price , bearings same price, heads we can look at afr (or any other if you want) from JEGS:
SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Heads - 210cc Intake Ports
033-1103 SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Head
210cc Intake Ports
Standard Exhaust Port
Angled Plug Type
66cc Combustion Chambers
80cc Exhaust Ports
1.550'' Roller Valve Spring,
220 lbs. Seat Pressure
.670'' Max Lift
Sold As Pair
More Details
$1,999.99
LS1
033-1510 SB-Chevy LS1 Mongoose Cylinder Head
205cc Intake Ports
CNC Ported w/Parts
66cc Combustion Chambers
85cc Exhaust Ports
1.290'' Dual Hydraulic Valve Spring
135 lbs. Seat Pressure
.600'' Max Lift
Sold in Pairs
More Details
$2,249.99
now this is just a small sample we can go as high as we want for both style engine and we could both go to our respectible vendors and find great deals on all of the items needed, pricing can go either way . Honestly we could both post up pricing all day long to counter the other but The blanket statement that ls series is much more to build (engine wise, not considering EFI) is untrue.
infield homerun for ls1's?
i still can not find any info about the 1000hp n/a sbc, but again i am only performing a google search.
So i'd consider that ball one.
your second strike i need to research. so until i can its still a strike
The parts price difference,stock for stock we know the ls1 stuff is better, thats not in question, correct? Depending on which vendor you go to there can be a 200-400 dollar difference most cranks untill you reach the top where they equal out. Rod, bout the same price , bearings same price, heads we can look at afr (or any other if you want) from JEGS:
SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Heads - 210cc Intake Ports
033-1103 SB-Chevy Competition Cylinder Head
210cc Intake Ports
Standard Exhaust Port
Angled Plug Type
66cc Combustion Chambers
80cc Exhaust Ports
1.550'' Roller Valve Spring,
220 lbs. Seat Pressure
.670'' Max Lift
Sold As Pair
More Details
$1,999.99
LS1
033-1510 SB-Chevy LS1 Mongoose Cylinder Head
205cc Intake Ports
CNC Ported w/Parts
66cc Combustion Chambers
85cc Exhaust Ports
1.290'' Dual Hydraulic Valve Spring
135 lbs. Seat Pressure
.600'' Max Lift
Sold in Pairs
More Details
$2,249.99
now this is just a small sample we can go as high as we want for both style engine and we could both go to our respectible vendors and find great deals on all of the items needed, pricing can go either way . Honestly we could both post up pricing all day long to counter the other but The blanket statement that ls series is much more to build (engine wise, not considering EFI) is untrue.
infield homerun for ls1's?
Originally Posted by spray
So I have a question for you guys who believe the LSX is superior to everything else. What about a W8 SBD. Nothing and I mean nothing makes more power then a W8 headed small block dodge. W8 motor makes way more power then a hemi or wedge. It isn't cheap to build but an SB2.2 headed SBC is 100hp behind it. They are very durable and for resale there is nothing better so your cost of ownership is low. Usually a good W8 motor will cost you what an LSX will ( about $30,000) but if you don't completely destroy it you will get $20000 for it used and running all day every day. So lets hear about it. What makes the LSX superior in both dollars and power over this engine. BTW I still disagree ... I think SBC is still ahead of LSX. I am only building one because I have had one offered to me free of charge. My Friend at Cdn Performance (Sled28) wants to build a max effort engine and he knows I have the car and skills to get the most out of it!
BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.
BTW: Even carb'd the LSX costs more. Warhawk block and custom intakes and belt drive distributor. SBC is much easier and cheaper.
Originally Posted by spray
Oh yes, To the guy who wants to race dynos you are on crack.
, if by crack you mean large amounts of coffee then yes sir! 
Originally Posted by spray
There are engines that make far less power then others and run faster. You build a race engine to race it! Not dyno it and stare at it like Art! Don't believe the hype!.
For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples!
For example on one system my car at 3200lbs makes 855rwhp and goes well over 165mph with a glide on a 28 tire. Now I bet you LSX makes more power then that...but there will be no 165 mph from you! Thats my point. mph is hp! What is yours? At least compare apples to apples!
Spray, not to sound like an ******* because i am not and i know how somethings can be read wrong when it is in text and not a spoken word, but come post up some legit hard facts like Marc 85Z28 to get your veiw across, just because i dont agree wont mean you are wrong , it just means i dont agree. Again i do like where this is going and Marc 85Z28has posted some interesting things that i did not know about and need to research, but again i and other dont happen to agree, just like you,Marc 85Z28 and other dont agree with what i type. What this can do is expose some truths and facts to counter false statements that may have been floating around. I for one am going to research what Marc 85Z28 has posted because i have nothing better to do in my poor crack induced coma
I think it is funny how all of you jump on the bandwagon when something new comes out. Saying that it is the best and what not. Saying that the stock pieces hold far better than anything the SBC has had in it stock. If someone where to take the time and read peoples builds, they would find that all these claims will be discredited.
I have a link here... where a stock "rebuild" that has a 150k miles on it, was pulled from the junk yard and powerwashed, sprayed with WD40, then put back together with some shitty *** 1970s smog TRUCK heads (1.72 intake valves... unported). TPI on the top with two old *** GN turbos (plus some nitrous) and it makes 660 some horsepower through a Automatic tranny, unlocked converter, and a 9 inch. MOTOR IS A STOCK 350 WITH GOOD HARDWARE. ANd has held for numerous dyno runs and passes down the 1320 (and running a high 9).
The fact is any platform is worth building. The LT1 is a waste of time if you have the funds to go to a SBC or a LS1.... but you can't forget that cam/heads and some nitrous will get you 10's in a "slow" lt1. No one can say that a certain "platform" is better than the next. They both have their ups and then their downs. Dont make me point them out, you know they both do.
Why dont you all quit arguing and think for a minute... JESUS
BTW... here is the link to the 9 second junkyard motor
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/ind...?topic=61219.0
I have a link here... where a stock "rebuild" that has a 150k miles on it, was pulled from the junk yard and powerwashed, sprayed with WD40, then put back together with some shitty *** 1970s smog TRUCK heads (1.72 intake valves... unported). TPI on the top with two old *** GN turbos (plus some nitrous) and it makes 660 some horsepower through a Automatic tranny, unlocked converter, and a 9 inch. MOTOR IS A STOCK 350 WITH GOOD HARDWARE. ANd has held for numerous dyno runs and passes down the 1320 (and running a high 9).
The fact is any platform is worth building. The LT1 is a waste of time if you have the funds to go to a SBC or a LS1.... but you can't forget that cam/heads and some nitrous will get you 10's in a "slow" lt1. No one can say that a certain "platform" is better than the next. They both have their ups and then their downs. Dont make me point them out, you know they both do.
Why dont you all quit arguing and think for a minute... JESUS
BTW... here is the link to the 9 second junkyard motor
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/ind...?topic=61219.0
You Google'd Scott Shafiroff and came up empty handed 
How about www.shafiroff.com
Keep in mind these engines include ALL NEW parts, nothing reman or refurbished. Those power and reliability levels can easily be achieved cheaper, as long as the engine is used in an environment where it doesn't see continuous full load high RPM operation.
Since when did the AFR head prices go up for the SBC and down for the LS1? In 2004 I bought some 195s direct from AFR for $1250. The 210s were the same price... Essentially I bought a set of aftermarket "top of the line" aluminum heads for less than a set of ported stock LS1 castings. Then compare cam prices, and intake prices...
And to the comments about the "used" SBC stuff. Thanks for kicking yourself in the nuts, as that's another SBC merit - they're EVERYWHERE! I can build a SBC from WalMart, 7-11, or McDonalds even
Remember, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" design. GM wanted to address all the shortcomings of the old SBC. They copied their designs directly from the SBC aftermarket. So basically anything GM put into the LS1 someone put on an SBC decades ago, and proved it to the point that GM copied it.
Want to know about fast LS1s, Terminators, Supras, and turbo imports? You'll find them on the internet. Want to know about the REAL high performance vehicles? Get off the computer and go to a track.
How about www.shafiroff.com
Keep in mind these engines include ALL NEW parts, nothing reman or refurbished. Those power and reliability levels can easily be achieved cheaper, as long as the engine is used in an environment where it doesn't see continuous full load high RPM operation.Since when did the AFR head prices go up for the SBC and down for the LS1? In 2004 I bought some 195s direct from AFR for $1250. The 210s were the same price... Essentially I bought a set of aftermarket "top of the line" aluminum heads for less than a set of ported stock LS1 castings. Then compare cam prices, and intake prices...
And to the comments about the "used" SBC stuff. Thanks for kicking yourself in the nuts, as that's another SBC merit - they're EVERYWHERE! I can build a SBC from WalMart, 7-11, or McDonalds even
Remember, the LS1 was a "clean sheet" design. GM wanted to address all the shortcomings of the old SBC. They copied their designs directly from the SBC aftermarket. So basically anything GM put into the LS1 someone put on an SBC decades ago, and proved it to the point that GM copied it.
Want to know about fast LS1s, Terminators, Supras, and turbo imports? You'll find them on the internet. Want to know about the REAL high performance vehicles? Get off the computer and go to a track.
Last edited by Marc 85Z28; Dec 26, 2006 at 06:11 PM.
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9 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
who said the LS series is superior to everything, not i. if that was directed at me find it in any of my posts. What i do say is the the ls is superior the the gen1's. If you want to start talking about different engine styles , can i throw in a jet engine?
hmm who could that be? me , if by crack you mean large amounts of coffee then yes sir!
hmmmmmmmmm didnt i already cover that?... what do you mean on one system? are you talking about a computer model mock up race?
Spray, not to sound like an ******* because i am not and i know how somethings can be read wrong when it is in text and not a spoken word, but come post up some legit hard facts like Marc 85Z28 to get your veiw across, just because i dont agree wont mean you are wrong , it just means i dont agree. Again i do like where this is going and Marc 85Z28has posted some interesting things that i did not know about and need to research, but again i and other dont happen to agree, just like you,Marc 85Z28 and other dont agree with what i type. What this can do is expose some truths and facts to counter false statements that may have been floating around. I for one am going to research what Marc 85Z28 has posted because i have nothing better to do in my poor crack induced coma
hmm who could that be? me
, if by crack you mean large amounts of coffee then yes sir! hmmmmmmmmm didnt i already cover that?... what do you mean on one system? are you talking about a computer model mock up race?
Spray, not to sound like an ******* because i am not and i know how somethings can be read wrong when it is in text and not a spoken word, but come post up some legit hard facts like Marc 85Z28 to get your veiw across, just because i dont agree wont mean you are wrong , it just means i dont agree. Again i do like where this is going and Marc 85Z28has posted some interesting things that i did not know about and need to research, but again i and other dont happen to agree, just like you,Marc 85Z28 and other dont agree with what i type. What this can do is expose some truths and facts to counter false statements that may have been floating around. I for one am going to research what Marc 85Z28 has posted because i have nothing better to do in my poor crack induced coma
Launching!
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
i dont think its jumping on the bandwagon when something new come out...if thats the case then why did everyone buy a newer ls1 car when there was a ton of thirdgens out there...because its new and probably a better car 
i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as **** and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!
i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as **** and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!
9 Second Club
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by black84z28
i dont think its jumping on the bandwagon when something new come out...if thats the case then why did everyone buy a newer ls1 car when there was a ton of thirdgens out there...because its new and probably a better car
i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as **** and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!
i am ditching he sbc out of my car for a few reasons....i am not going to get a decent fuel injection system for under 2k for a built sbc unlike the one that comes stock on a ls1 car...aluminum block....what is the cheapest one...like 4k?????.....the heads alone on the ls1 are FAR superior to any stock chevy head out there...what stock chevy head offers 330cfm out of the box untouched?....these motors are reliable as **** and some guy on camaraoz28.com a few years back had a 98 with 320k on the clock...no small block has one coil per plug granted ou can add that yourself...this comes stock....to me its a way better designed motor unless i wanna spend a shitload of cash on a 434 like someone i know to run low 9s and then have a nitrous burp and blow a ring out and pay a 9k for a refresh on the motor...i am building a road race set up car and what i am doing is the way to go...!!
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,004
Likes: 0
I would hope a Gen 1 could be built up to be a stronger engine. It has over 50 years under its belt. The LS engines have just over 10. Big difference. I believe if you compare the 2 engines with stock production engine blocks the LS is at an advantage. Stock GEN 1 blocks I dont believe are as strong. Not talking Dart or World or GMPP. Just stock. There is a strong aftermarket for the LS engines and it is steadily getting stronger. Far less GEN3/4 engines running in dedicated classes then the GEN1/2 engines obviously. This can be argued forever. There are so many variables. Do you compare stock castings as in head castings like 461, 462 to the castings like LS1 or LS6. Who would win then right? I dont think the GEN1 would. I think once these new blocks for the LS engines are out with the accompanying heads there is going to be huge power increases just like there was when the GEN 1 engines were offered aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels, 18 degree heads and so on. Just my opinion. For my goals, i am just about ready to dump one or both of the GEN 1 engines and go LS engine cause of the effiecency, cheaper fuel injection this way for myself, also cheaper for me to get into aluminum block this way which is a big plus for myself. Mind you, i am not looking to run any record holding times or anything like that.
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
xdamxincx Keep your 4 posts to yourself and go away troll, until you have anything valid to post. if you want to get into a war of words with me i will be more than happy , lets just take it to pm's.
Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.
Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.
And i am merely speculating on what i have read in this thread. You clearly dont have the experience of either engine designs. And the people in this section which are trying to help people with sbc should not be wasting their time with you is all.
Originally Posted by SSZ
I would hope a Gen 1 could be built up to be a stronger engine. It has over 50 years under its belt. The LS engines have just over 10. Big difference. .
Originally Posted by SSZ
I believe if you compare the 2 engines with stock production engine blocks the LS is at an advantage. Stock GEN 1 blocks I dont believe are as strong. Not talking Dart or World or GMPP. Just stock. .
Originally Posted by SSZ
There is a strong aftermarket for the LS engines and it is steadily getting stronger. Far less GEN3/4 engines running in dedicated classes then the GEN1/2 engines obviously. This can be argued forever. There are so many variables. Do you compare stock castings as in head castings like 461, 462 to the castings like LS1 or LS6. Who would win then right? I dont think the GEN1 would..
Originally Posted by SSZ
I think once these new blocks for the LS engines are out with the accompanying heads there is going to be huge power increases just like there was when the GEN 1 engines were offered aftermarket blocks with raised cam tunnels, 18 degree heads and so on. Just my opinion. For my goals, i am just about ready to dump one or both of the GEN 1 engines and go LS engine cause of the effiecency, cheaper fuel injection this way for myself, also cheaper for me to get into aluminum block this way which is a big plus for myself. Mind you, i am not looking to run any record holding times or anything like that.
Originally Posted by TN94Z
Which way would be cheaper to go? With the LS1 and tuning software, EFI, etc...is it cheaper to just go SBC or will it all be about the same either way?
if your starting from scratch and using used/new stuff ,thats gunna boil down what "Deals" u come by first.. but if ur buying everything new.. the sbc is going to be cheaper to build. thats my view.
Originally Posted by KHShapiro
once a troll always a troll, try contributing something vaild for once.
or do us a favor and go away.
or do us a favor and go away.