SBCvsLS1??
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Originally Posted by xdamxincx
actually technology 50 years ago is nothing to compared to 10 years ago which should mean the ls motors should of surpassed the sbc if it could.. but it cant .. it is no better no worse.. its still a v8 pushrod engine with identicle characteristics as the sbc..
wrong some of the gen 1 sbc's block is well capable of 1000-1200 hp .. some 1000 hp cars without block fill as well.
yes the ls engine use a different head design that the earlier gen 1 motors did not have stock .. but the ls era was not when the different head designs were used.. technology for the new head design was with gen 1 engines.. nascar's 18 degree engines were the first to use a different valve angle to increas head flow and velocity.. so what the ls engine has now was not some revolutionary design.. the sbc engines actually has more head options than the ls motor which makes them at this point in time more versatile and be made to make more power over all ..
the new blocks design will not do nothing the sbc hasnt or is doing. the 18 degree head and raised deck were before the ls era. fuel injection is cheaper ?? wow
wrong some of the gen 1 sbc's block is well capable of 1000-1200 hp .. some 1000 hp cars without block fill as well.
yes the ls engine use a different head design that the earlier gen 1 motors did not have stock .. but the ls era was not when the different head designs were used.. technology for the new head design was with gen 1 engines.. nascar's 18 degree engines were the first to use a different valve angle to increas head flow and velocity.. so what the ls engine has now was not some revolutionary design.. the sbc engines actually has more head options than the ls motor which makes them at this point in time more versatile and be made to make more power over all ..
the new blocks design will not do nothing the sbc hasnt or is doing. the 18 degree head and raised deck were before the ls era. fuel injection is cheaper ?? wow
The point i made about the fuel injection was if you were to get a complete LS engine with harness and injectors and all sensors it would be cheaper to jump into FI then small block chev. From what I have read and witnessed. FAST isnt really cheap and cant say really expensive but i believe more expensive when talking about engines for the street. Also, if you think the technology was all in the angle of the valve then think again cause i also think that the cathedral port is much different than the GEN1 port. Sure they have used combustion chamber design from advancements with the GEN 1 but hey thats not all of it. I still think that once you see these blocks and heads coming from the various aftermarket companies it wont be long before they exceed the GEN1. You cant expect GM to build an engine from scratch with everything in mind. I have to admit, if i was going to build an all out effort comp engine as small block i would prolly go GEN1. It still would cost though. And no i dont think it would be half as much as the GEN3/4 i think the cost would be closer to one another than half. Aftermarket blocks, custom crank, custom rings, pistons, lifters, all that custom stuff in those power building builds cost extra. That is just some of those extras also.
Originally Posted by SSZ
So, are you saying that having 50 years under the belt of the GEN1 doesnt mean crap to the GEN3/4? Yeah, I see what you are saying about the technology being different but when you redesign an engine do you think that you can pull all the tricks out of the hat at once? I dont think so myself..
Originally Posted by SSZ
The point i made about the fuel injection was if you were to get a complete LS engine with harness and injectors and all sensors it would be cheaper to jump into FI then small block chev. From what I have read and witnessed. FAST isnt really cheap and cant say really expensive but i believe more expensive when talking about engines for the street..
Originally Posted by SSZ
Also, if you think the technology was all in the angle of the valve then think again cause i also think that the cathedral port is much different than the GEN1 port. Sure they have used combustion chamber design from advancements with the GEN 1 but hey thats not all of it. I still think that once you see these blocks and heads coming from the various aftermarket companies it wont be long before they exceed the GEN1..
Originally Posted by SSZ
You cant expect GM to build an engine from scratch with everything in mind. I have to admit, if i was going to build an all out effort comp engine as small block i would prolly go GEN1. It still would cost though. And no i dont think it would be half as much as the GEN3/4 i think the cost would be closer to one another than half. Aftermarket blocks, custom crank, custom rings, pistons, lifters, all that custom stuff in those power building builds cost extra. That is just some of those extras also.
i just checked ebay..
ls1 4340 eagle crank -725.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 479.00
summit
ls1 4340 eagle crank -1059.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 659.00
same price difference with je pistons as well..
so please tell me where the ls1 is cheaper..
Last edited by xdamxincx; Dec 27, 2006 at 02:54 AM.
Launching!
Joined: Apr 2005
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Originally Posted by xdamxincx
anything custom is going to be top dollar.. but thats not what the average person would want.. they would want off the shelf forged internals..
i just checked ebay..
ls1 4340 eagle crank -725.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 479.00
summit
ls1 4340 eagle crank -1059.00
sbc 4340 eagle crank----- 659.00
same price difference with je pistons as well..
so please tell me where the ls1 is cheaper..
why do you need a crank and pistons or even rods when a well set up car can run in the high 10s with a stock bottom end...there is even a guy with a 1200hp tta using a stock crank...my friends 2000 is making enough mph for mid/low 10s if he could get it to hook better with a cam/exhaust/tires and nitrous
for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?...
to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....
Originally Posted by black84z28
for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?...
to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....
to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....
Marc 85Z28 , lets then compare the high end stuff and not eagle
i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.
i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.
Originally Posted by black84z28
why do you need a crank and pistons or even rods when a well set up car can run in the high 10s with a stock bottom end...there is even a guy with a 1200hp tta using a stock crank...my friends 2000 is making enough mph for mid/low 10s if he could get it to hook better with a cam/exhaust/tires and nitrous....
Originally Posted by black84z28
for 1300 i can buy a whole lq9 6 liter bottom end, the heads i want with port work/springs for 1500....the intake i can get with injectors/tb/fuel rail for 500....cam is another 350 for the ms4...a motor similar to this make almost 500hp/tq to the rear wheels....how is that not cheap?.......
Originally Posted by black84z28
to build a sbc 383 with similar power to this and keep it streetable is going to be a factor on what cam is used....chevy rumble bult a low comp 383 using the extreme energy 284hr cam which has alot of duration with a set of afrs and a rpm air gap and made 543 flywheel hp....the bottom end to handle this will cost more than 1300 to build up reliably....the cam is i think 259 and the intake was another 200...then you gotta factor in the carb and for a good one you're paying atleast 500...then you got a set of 1400 heads blah blah....
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Originally Posted by KHShapiro
Marc 85Z28 , lets then compare the high end stuff and not eagle
i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.
i still believe, from what i have seen as far as pricing , that in the high end an LS series isnt going to be like comparing a small countries debt to a person loan (ls vs sbc build) i think they are gonne be close to the same.
The 950 FWHP engine you had list at 15-1 was 28k... 15-1... yeah i think you can do that with the C5R, WarHawk or the new GM LSX iron block. I would choose the warhawk for the added head bolts.
here is an a close setup i have cept i have some of the upgraded stufflike whats on the second example and i have less ci.....http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/434_685.asp
here is what i would have with just 15* heads. second example ...http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/434_825.asp
and mind you this is done with a short deck motor.. not a tall deck like the ls motors. u dont want to see whats done with sbc dart tall deack iron eagle blocks, like our 500 cubic inch sbc.
that engine is 14.8-1
here is the first warhawk build?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...&highlight=422
amazing what high comp can do.
edit: the 14.8-1 is the 725 for 10,600
685 is 14-1 for those of you who arent going to vist that website.
here is the first warhawk build?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...&highlight=422
amazing what high comp can do.
edit: the 14.8-1 is the 725 for 10,600
685 is 14-1 for those of you who arent going to vist that website.
Last edited by KHShapiro; Dec 27, 2006 at 01:39 PM.
Originally Posted by black84z28
so a cam with 242/248 duration is a very tame cam on the street?....seems a bit high on the duration side right?
Launching!
Joined: Apr 2005
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how about read what people are posting before you try and discredit what they are saying...that cam had to do with the 383 build i was comparing to a 6liter build for hp...that is what we are doing right...comparing a gen3 and gen1 engine for cheapness to buiild and see what one is better?
that cam would not be very street friendly with that much duration...thats what i was implying between two builds that make roughly the same hp
that cam would not be very street friendly with that much duration...thats what i was implying between two builds that make roughly the same hp
