Notime383

iTrader: (6)

I'm having a hard time figuring out how to post these quotes,but Marc85Z28 said it best! I have/will build both and I have nothing against either (both are great engines), but the LSX is more dollars to build, peroid! Pick which ever you want, it comes down to preference, avaliability, and $$$$$'s! I think too much emphasiss goes into these comparisons when all that matters is (everything else being equal vehicle/weight/tire etc..)who won the race! Guy's wanna argue on how you went 8's! Tech stuff is great! But you'll spend 2 years arguing what a simple race will answer! Both can go 400HP-1500HP, and because the SBC has done a wonderful job of "keeping up" with the LSX's you can build'em both any color/size/shape you want! Out the box the LSX's are better HP/$ but one would expect that from a engine born in 1997 vs a 1950's eng! But all out you'll argue all day with the SBC having a little edge ! I have both in my garage and wouldn't mind building either, just gotta get creative and see which one will make more sense $$ wise! Isn't that all that matters? $$$'s and creativeness!

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

There are Top Stock, stock specification 305s running 10s in the 3rd gen chassis. Thats right - not a typo. 10s down the quarter, in a stock headed, "stock spec" cam 305ci in a 3rd gen Camaro.

Secondly, the current motor in the 85 was a budget motor that I built in high school and removed from the car to put in my S10. I built a 350ci gen 1 SBC that would wear my LS1 out like a $5 *****, and did so fairly cheap. Used ZZ4 shortblock with TRW pistons (11:1 compression), with AFR 195 heads cleaned up, a hyd flat tappet Comp XE284, with a Performer RPM intake and good exhaust the car went 11 flat with ease. Unfortunately a nitrous solenoid failed and chunked 3 pistons, and severely damaged the engine.

BTW - the engine you see in the sig for my 85 cost me less than $2000. Jasper rebuilt 350 came with the World Products S/R heads on a 010 block bored .030" over for $1250. I lightly cleaned up the heads myself and port matched, added the larger cam, valvetrain, intake, carb, and exhaust all for under a grand total of $2000. LS1 fans, suck on that! Car runs mid 12s, which is more than enough to embarass many bolt-on LS1s.

black84z28

links....i have never seen anything like that ever,,,i am interested,,,since m66nova on thirdgen got his car into the 12s with a 305 i was like cool...


it still comes down to the fact the newer gen3 is a much better motor than a gen1...there is a reason why gm spent the money to redesign the old design small block


while your motor in your car might embarass some ls1s my friends before a ms4 cam change was running low 12s with bolt ons a small cam and slicks

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

Very nice indeed, with the release of the warhawk block expect to see that matched and exceeded. prices should be very similar.

with thoese parts , (Dart little M block iron is 2,000 and 5k for aluminum)you could do an MID aluminum block(about 2,500) w/carb intake or ls6 intake for about the same price. And IMO have a better more powerful engine.
wow
ok, you are right. Mine was very close to 30k i went with the best parts outside of aluminum rods, a c5r block , the warhawk block wasnt released then.
BUT if i had went with eagle (like the engine you have listed above) and some other brands it can be done for half or less.

we talking about engines or cars? cause you should know if they arent set up right it doesnt matter how much power they put out if it never gets to the ground. and no i never saw the video
wow x 2

again why are people racing lsx's? coolness factor, i aint buying that cause in the end its about power ,relibility and winning

JAY ROD

iTrader: (1)

I am with KHShapiro.This other guy who thinks a stock headed 305 can hurl a 3rd gen camaro in the 10's n/a is a joker.My buddy who raced his 84 z/28 spent 8k at beatty n woods on his 355 and his best time was a 12.40.He had 450h.p and his car was lightened.I guess Mark knows where all the good swap meets are cause I never heard of someone building anything with a zz bottom end with afr heads plus intake and carb etc for 2k.Good luck in your quest for h.p and merry x-mas everyone.

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

i also must say that i am surprised that you havent taken out that lack luster ls1 in your 00 and replaced it with a 305 sbc or even a 350 sbc (all gen 1's ofcourse)........j/k

Can you hyper link the site that sell that 650 FWHP Gen 1 SBC i would like to read about it more. And the 1000hp n/a as well thanks.

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

you bought a used engine, ofcourse its going to be cheaper than building new. i know you know that i just want to make it clear for people that happen to stumble upon this thread and use this as a crutch saying Gen1's are sooo much cheaper to build.
Quality parts are quality parts and they aint cheap, apples to apples.
Someone can find GREAT deals if they look or if someone is in dire need to sell they will almost give something away, They can also be found here int he F/S section as well for LS1 items and engines as well. I agree with you, its all in the budget you have and if that the time Gen1 SBC is the only thing you can find and you need to buy now then you go with what you can get.
once again apple to apples

black84z28

i can get a used 6 liter lq9 from a truck and get some l92 heads and l76 intake for cheap and get an easy 450rwhp car from that....it would cost more for me to build a gen 1 because i would have to start with everything new...

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

instead of talking about cars and there e.t's. lets discuss the engines merits and the question of the lsx vs sbc gen1's. this is a lively debate and I hope it is continuous in its spirit.

Notime383

iTrader: (6)

You'll argue till your blue! Both can be built upto 1000+HP if you got the doe! Forget about, who got this cheaper and who got that! If I wanna go 8's either motor is more than capable, and both will cost about the same give or take a few! The LSX is new Technology (a little more expensive) and it's way ahead of the 50's style GEN 1 SBC, so there's no arguing that! That being said, The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared!
LSX= SBC with good heads!
Check out some of those: SB2-18DEG, 12 DEG, ETC.. equipped Gen 1 SBC's!

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

lsx does not equal a gen1 sbc with good heads. you can semi clone the ls series onn the gen1 but it isn't the same.
the oiling and bay to bay breathing is much better in the ls series not to mention less friction within the block.

spray

There is no reasoning with you guys so I give up. LSX is the greatest engine ever concieved by man. It is better then a nuclear reactor and makes more power and is more efficient. OK? You win! Now do you want to race my SBC? Since its inferior and old and used maybe I can get a few cars from you?

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

spray , you are taking this to a different level , just relax a bit and be more objective.
maybe you didnt get everything you wanted from santa today?

Yes i am saying the Gen1 is inferior , even GM says it is. if it wasnt GM would have stayed with the orginal platform and saved in R&D cause its all about money with them.If you really believe in the gen1's why are you spending and i quote you above 20K+ on an ls series? shouldnt you just stick with your 421?
engine or chassis dyno? If its chassis just let me know your tire size,tranny,gear, rear type and induction so we can make it equal test beds, but yes i would like to Race your SBC on a dyno.
Every real racer knows (doesnt matter if its bracket or street)its not the car with the most power car that wins, its the one that is set up correctly and has a better driver.
So when its all said and done i would be more than happy to line up with you win, lose or draw.

not quite sure where you are going with that but if its a dig that i am basicly trying to sell the ls series like a "car salesmen", sorry i am not and i dont sell anything in real life either in my line of work.

I am not bashing anyone and i also hope that Marc 85Z28 doesnt feel that i am.

i would like more researchable facts instead of blind posts
and i will continue to post as long as there are also post and threads that the Gen1 SBC is the end all of all the SBC's

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

Notime383, i do to a point agree with your statement that "The gen 1 SBC has no reason to come up short when properly compared" , to a point.

Anyone one have a few dyno graphs to post so we can compare the two , similar ci and build specs should be paired for comparison....
Since there are a hand full of carb'd ls's out there any EFI Gen'1 would be great as well. we could also do all sorts of FI to compare as well. I think this would be very intersting to compare the curves.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

Those engine specs were pulled directly out of Scott Shafiroff's catalog.

And yes, there are Top Stock and Super Stock 305ci 3rd gens running 10s. They do in fact run stock casting cylinder heads, and "stock spec" camshaft, quotes being there for a very important reason TS/SS is no secret, the rules can easily be obtained from NHRA and records for displacement and chassis can also be obtained from NHRA. Or just go to a local track that has TS/SS racing, and ask around. Oh wait, you want links (10 second Google search):

http://www.nhra.com/2004/sportsman/n...er/121401.html
http://www.shopoutdoors.com/b&lracing.htm (9 second 305)

These cars posted above only must produce a certain specified HP rating set by NHRA (current is 258HP for 305s I believe). They also achieve these feats with an ungodly amount of restrictions. So next time anyone wants to dog a stock headed 305 Camaro, shut your mouth.

Yes, the LS1 is superior in stock trim. GM agrees, so do you, so do I. But GM is not in the business of SBC maximum performance. My arguement, as was the original posters, is that the SBC has more potential. Nowhere did I ever state anything about stock vs stock. Anyone who uses this point to validate any further arguement is invited to promptly leave this post, as they do not belong here.

LOL! I'm glad you liked my SBF comment. But go ahead, and refuse to look anywhere but the LS1 market and this internet site and base all opinions on it. I dare you KHShapiro, to attend any Fun Ford event or any NMRA event. If you're not completely humbled by what they are doing with the SBF vs the LS1, I'll reimburse you for the admission costs - seriously.

Finally, I'll add that anyone who feels the need to argue any further get off the computer and actually visit a local track that hosts 10.5 Outlaw racing, which I believe shows a very good representation of what is being done in the extreme high performance world - much unlike what you'll find at LS1Tech.com.

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

JAY ROD - drink too much egg nog?

1. 305 Camaros run 9s. See link above.
2. Quote where I said I built a AFR headed ZZ4 shortblock engine for $2K. I clearly stated that price for another engine. How you missed that, I don't know.
3. Your buddy can't build a car obvisouly.
4. See the last paragraph in the above post.

xdamxincx

iTrader: (1)

all i have to say is this khshapiro has no idea what he is talking about . and looks like he is just making things up as he goes.. thats just my lil .02

KHShapiro

iTrader: (10)

xdamxincx Keep your 4 posts to yourself and go away troll, until you have anything valid to post. if you want to get into a war of words with me i will be more than happy , lets just take it to pm's.

Marc 85Z28, nice post with real information, but again are we talking about cars and ets or engines? If the car is light and has a decent supension its gonna fly no matter what.

black84z28

wow...i guess my stock headed cammed 305 was a capable 10sec ride (if it was a full out race car)
so where is info of a stock headed 305 that can make the power like the above combo i stated in another post and do it n/a for under 3.5k


i rather have a better designed motor with a good efi set up like the one i plan on building

Marc 85Z28

iTrader: (8)

Unfortunately we can't race engines. They've got to be in a vehicle for any true comparison to be made. But we already compared engine to engine, dyno vs dyno. So until someone can build an LS1 that produces over 1000HP in naturally aspirated form, for the sake of this arguement, the SBC wins the dyno race - strike 1. And until someone can find an LS1 putting up better track times than any of the SBC counterparts running in the same class, (not talking lame 11 second SI stuff here), I'll boast that the SBC wins the real world performance race - strike 2. Finally, a quick look at any major aftermarket parts vendor that deals with both high end SBC and LS1 parts will show just how much of a price difference there truly is between the two - strike 3, LS1's out.

Let's not get into reliability either. Show me any LS1 that has crossed the half million mile mark, untouched. I've seen countless Caprice taxi's that were ex-police vehicles with 300K, 400K, even over 500K miles on the stock SBC, and still running strong. And those vehicles lived anything but an easy life.