Unaffliated Racing

iTrader: (15)

Thanks man. We charge 100.00 an hour for dyno rental. After the first hour, it goes to half hour increments. so an hour and a half would be 150.00 rather than 200.00

hope that makes sense.

call us and let us know when you want on.

tom's2005gto

iTrader: (3)

Just to make my point. The shop said:

"Your car is leaking oil from the pan seal because of blow by around the rings. The wrong rings were installed. Or that the cylinders have glazed due to braking in using mobil 1 oil"

My point was that IF we were experiencing blow by and severe crank case pressures, that we would be leaking from other places before the oil pan gasket.

But the shop insisted on pulling the engine, re-honing the block and replacing the rings. This after they had dropped the oil pan once that I know of, and the tranny to check / replace the rear cover, once that I know of.

My reason for picking up the car was, I could not believe that rings were the problem. And obviously it wasn't. The shop overlooked tightening 9 of the 10 main cap bolts that come out of the sides of the block just above the oil pan. This is the only reason the car was leaking oil. So much oil it was a cloud driving down the street, so much oil that it was dripping off of everything from the oil filter to the rear end.

Yes, the shop tried and tried to locate the problem. Over a two (?) week period. But when their only solution was to replace the rings, it was time to pick it up.

One other note. The shop did tell me to pick up the car, drive it, and see if by chance the rings will seat. But they did also say that they didn't think they would, because they felt that the cylinders were already glazed from having used mobil 1 during the break in period. But that I could try.

So I towed the car home. Put in 1 qt of oil. Drove it to a nearby show and back home. Oil was everywhere. I called another forum member, he suggested that he come over and look at it. He did, and made the offer to take it to his shop and fix it for a flat fee, as he felt the problem was not the rings, but a leak somewhere. He also told me that if he didn't fix it, it would be no charge. So I figured, what the heck, what is there to loose. This young man of 24 years young, did find the 9 loose bolts. He did spend 16 hours hunting down all possible solutions, and yes, he also removed the oil pan and tranny several times. But he went a step further and removed the starter and then looked along the side of the block with an inspection mirror and discovered oil leaking around the bolts. Forty minutes latter all the bolts had been removed, sealant added and torqued to specs.

Problem solved.

If the shop had done their job, that they were paid for, right. Or had diagnosed the problem correctly, this whole situation would have never occurred.

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

Obviously, had we been allowed to pull the motor like we insisted, we would have found the problem.

We made a recommendation on another ring and offered to have the block honed AT OUR EXPENSE. If we had done this, we would have found those loose bolts (if thats really where it was leaking from)

I have stated that IF I left those bolts loose, then its on me. A big mistake.

Had I been ALLOWED TO DO MY JOB I would have found the problem and corrected it.

When a customer is his own worst enemy and DEMANDS to do things his way, then he just has to suffer the concequences.

Tom, dont try to make this out like we INSISTED or even SUGGESTED you pick up this car. Thats just bull ****. You wanted the car and thats the bottom line. Thats why I wrote what I wrote on your invoice and made coppies.

I called you that Monday after we drove the car after changing out the oil pan gasket and told you we needed to pull the motor.

YOU SAID NO.....that you wanted to drive it.

You got EXACTLY what you asked for.

tom's2005gto

iTrader: (3)

You are correct, I did not agree that the rings were the problem.... that was easy to diagnose. But you insisted that the rings were the problem.

Allowed to do your job... now that's a laugh right there. Should I have called and reminded you to tighten the bolts? Or better yet, why didn't you just find the leak and fix it? Because you couldn't! You were so insistent that the rings were the problem that you failed to find the real problem. But yet another mechanic did, he fixed it.

My own worst enemy. NOPE. I saved my car! Saved it from being torn down unnecessarily, and the wrong rings installed.

Whats done is done. My car is fixed, unless something else was overlooked. Oh there was, yep the windage tray was removed and I was not told about that either.

Jeff, let's just move on. All I wanted to do was make my point. I have. If you want to continue batting this back and forth we can. But you have made your point and I have made mine.

Your call

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

You certainly made your point, and your decision. And it cost you.

Had I been allowed to pull the engine, tear it back down, and reassemble it like I insisted, AT NO COST TO YOU, I could have found the problem and corrected it.

Next time you are in this situation, allow the shop to do things the way they want to do them rather than dictate to them the way you want things done.

My way.....you pay for 150.00 worth of rings and the problem is corrected. (and if I had found what you claim is the problem, while dissassembling, you would have paid nothing)

Your way......you pay 500.00 for someone else to do what Brian and I already did, 100.00 for gaskets we had already replaced at your request, and your tune isnt finished.

My way would have been much better.

But hey, you made your point. Our diagnosis of rings was wrong. Congradulations!!!!!

FormulaZR

iTrader: (7)

My opinion probably won't be appreciated…and I don’t know the whole story, and I don't really care to. But I have been in a situation similar to Tom's. I had an LT1 rebuilt in the service department of the new car dealership I used to work at. After I got it back it had a bad vibration in it. They told me it was the driveshaft, but the car still had the vibration in park, so how was that possible??? Anyway, VERY long story short they supposedly fixed the problem and about 6 months later (2200 miles) the engine developed a bottom end knock. I had it rebuilt at a different shop. It appeared as though one of the main caps had not been properly torqued (although that cannot be proven). I was a little scared that there might be other issues still lurking in the engine, so it was fully rebuilt at that time. Anyway, my points are these: 1) I paid the dealership to properly rebuild an engine, which they did not do. 2) I DID allow them to try to fix the problem, and over the course of 3 months many parts were replaced...none needed replacing. 3) After my car was "fixed" so many times I lost any confidence I had in them that they could even fix the problem. 4) It was better to just have someone else do the work and know it was done properly.


I'm not saying that demanding a refund is the correct thing to do...but I would also have issues with a shop "fixing" something that isn't the problem. Sure, you maybe have found the reason, but you would have found it by accident. Just build it right the first time and then there is no question.

And as a business owner, I would expect you to be above posting stuff like this. I can tell you this, whether you do good work or not, I will never use you because of this. Very childish. I would've sent you a PM on this...but I'm sure you would've just posted it in here.

Now, feel free to flame me.

Zach

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

Im not arguing it should have been done right the first time. (im also not admitting it wasnt)

I am simply saying if I missed those bolts, shame on me. However, the customer was so involved in trying to direct us on what steps to take, it was unreal.

Pulling the engine and fully dissassembling for a hone and rings would have found the problem, and corrected it. Period.

We simply werent allowed to do that.

Sometimes its best for the customer to sit back and allow the shop to do what they are paying them to do, rather than get in the way and try to make decisions for themselves.

Your situation is really very different. It sounds like you allowed the shop to do their job and it still ended up not being right. We were never allowed a chance to correct the problem.

This is where your story differs greatly from Toms. He did NOT allow us to fix the problem. And I simply dont understand why anyone would care what hoops we jumped through to fix the problem, AS LONG AS WE FIXED the problem, like we assured Tom we would do in writing, on his invoice. We were going to go back over the job COMPLETELY a second time, free of charge....something I guarantee you many shops do at one time or another. The difference is, they dont allow the customer inside the shop to see the full process.....something my shop may have to consider stopping after this debacle.

If Tom had never been in my shop, watching the problem arise, he wouldnt have been able to stop me from simply fixing it. I could have just called him when it was done and all would have been right with the world.

and no one should flame you. your opinion is just as valuable as anyone elses here.

FormulaZR

iTrader: (7)

My only point is that once a shop screws up...and then doesn't know what the problem is and suggests another full rebuild, I think it's normal to question their skills/abilities. I don't blame him for not wanting you to fix his car. And as said before, the immature way you have decided to handle this has put you out of the market for me...and I need a 383 LS1 in a bad way.

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

Immature? If telling my side of the story is immature....well, sorry.

our skills and abilities have been well documented and it shows in the feedback forum here on this site.... however...we are human.

And what you call suggesting another rebuild, I call finding and fixing the problem, no matter the cost to myself, in order to make it right. I would venture to guess you spent quite a bit of money on that other shop hunting down the problem and making it right. Thats not the case here. We offered to do it all free of charge. There was simply NOTHING for the customer to lose in allowing us to go back over the job.

If im out of the market for your build because I posted my side of the story, and got pretty much the full support of everyone reading this except for yourself....I figure I was probably never a serious candidate to do the build in the first place.

Good luck.

red83

iTrader: (64)

tom2005gto-
have you ever made a mistake in your life? i sure the hell hope not since your bashing on a person (that i have no clue who he is). that openly admitted to flucking up. possibly. i say possibly because he will never know if he did or didnt tighten the bolts up. he cant go on someone elses word, or atleast i wouldnt.

LS2tiger

Sorry to see this issue going on. I have never met Brian or Jeff but they are freinds of my freinds. I do know Tom and will say that though he isnt like my best freind he's a freind. I'm confused also...? What I'm getting at is Spec is starting a new shop and they really dont need this. I wish they and Tom could've worked it out without resorting to this. Tom just wanted his car fixed. Was he wrong.? Was he right? I dont know,what I do know is that he was very discusted with the shop that he was working with that took his stuff and some of his money then went out of business.

I hope this can all be resolved with out Spec getting a bad reputation. I would also like Tom to be happy with his car. I personaly feel the all of this was just the end to a bad set of circumstances.

Good luck to all involved.

BOB.

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

Thanks Bob.

I obviously never wanted to have to deal with something like this on the internet. All I can do is give my side of the story and hope potential customers understand that I was willing to do whatever was necessary to make the job right. Including going completely back over everything I had done at no cost to the customer.

If I made a mistake, well im human. If I had said to the customer "well, I just cant figure this out so you will have to come get your car as is" then I could understand the customer, and everyone else thinking im an idiot.

Thats not what happened. I was not the one that made the decision or even the suggestion that the customer come get the car. I even made the statement that I didnt think the rings would ever seat.

Even if we did misdiagnose the problem, we would have found the bolt issue when we pulled the motor and began the tear down for new rings. It would have been right when it left my shop if I had been given the chance to make it so.

Tom has a right to be angry that we missed those bolts if that is indeed the case.

But to expect a refund, and threaten me with bad publicity if I dont give him one....when he took the car from be without giving me the chance to do what I had offered, IMO is just flat out wrong.

As far as us getting a bad reputation....well, when a shop insists they will do whatever it takes to make the job right, and puts it down in black and white....well....I just dont know what else I could have done.

Some people keep making the point that we offered to put in new rings and that wasnt the problem. Well that may be.....but pulling the motor, dissassembling the entire block, and replacing rings, bearings, doing machine work, etc would definately corrected the problem. Odds are I would have found the loose bolts during dissassembly and would not have even had to resort to the rings, bearings and machine work.

When I said I was going to pull the engine and proceed, I was told not to by the customer. I was told he wanted to drive the car to see if the rings would seat.

Im sorry if some people think its immature for me to be involved in this. My only other option was to allow Tom to tell his side of the story and not respond. I dont see how that would have helped me in the least.

LS2tiger

I understand Jeff,You know how things go overboard on the internet. I do know Kyle though and he is a very good freind He wouldnt lie just to back up anyone. He took apart everything to double check all possible problems. He is a very good tech. He did my new steering wheel and hub spring in about 10 minutes...! Good luck Jeff, we'll get a chance to meet soon.

BOB.

FormulaZR

iTrader: (7)

Then you figured wrong. I'm guessing you don't remember talking to me on the phone, because I didn't mention I was from the forum. It's not that you told your side of the story, it's how you went about it. You need to realize that part of owning a business includes things beyond just turning a wrench. YOU were the one to make the first post on this board, and the title of the whole thread is "Black mail is a wonderful thing..." Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any "threats" only a guy who said he wanted to work it out and keep it out of the sponsor feedback section. Maybe that's not how it actually it is, but that is my interpretation. And you are human and you do make mistakes. But, you obviously didn't torque those bolts and that IS part of owning a shop, rather than turning a wrench here and there. Check your work. And, according to him, you told him to drive that car. If I had the oil coming out of my car that Tom says he had, and then you told me to drive it...I wouldn't let you touch it again. I'm sure you will have plenty of customers without me, so good luck. But think about this...if you took your car to a tire shop, and they left 3 lugs loose, would you go back?

tom's2005gto

iTrader: (3)

You sir... hit the ALL THE NAILS ON THE HEAD!

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

ask yourself this.

All I can say is read. Its in black and white on the invoice. You obviously believe we wanted him to pick that car up in the condition it was in. You have the right to believe that.

Common sense and what I wrote on the invoice dictates otherwise.

and if I took my car to a tire shop, and they left 3 lugs loose, and I demanded to pick the car up with a wheel that clearly had a problem and was about to fall off without allowing the shop to go back over the job and double check everything....I would have no one to blame but myself.

Thats what happened here. Like it or not.

Good luck on your build.

You might want to go back and read his email to me again. You obviously missed some things.

I wanted to. At no cost to the customer. I wanted to go back over everything I did. I wasnt allowed to.

why can you not comprehend that?

Its fine really. People have to make a choice when reading this whole thing. Either you believe I pawned off a car on a customer that was leaking oil horribly and made some effort to get out of doing my job, or, you read the front and back of the invoice I posted and understand the truth.

I almost didnt make copies. I almost convinced myself there was no need to because people are generally good folks and would never try to pull something like claiming it was my idea for the car to leave the shop in the condition it was in.

Im glad I decided to make copies.

FormulaZR

iTrader: (7)

Why can't you comprehend the idea of checking your work before the engine is "completed" and in a car? Once you have a problem, you can't call pulling the engine checking your work. And when you say no cost, money may not be changing hands...but that's more time that you have his car and he doesn't. And, if you told him to drive it in the hopes that his rings might seal...then that would still be the same as a tire shop sending you out with 3 loose lugs and then telling you the problem is a wheel weight. Only difference is the lugs are easier to spot. If you'll just do quality work on the first try you won't have to try and hunt down what you forgot to do. Maybe it's time to realize engines just might not be your thing...maybe a lawn mowing service is a better choice.

Dennis@SpectacleSolutions

iTrader: (16)

sure you can.

like I said....no cost.

once again you dodge my obvious point. its easy to see why. if that shop told you that there was a prblem that needed to be corrected, and you saw the wheel had a problem, and still insisted on taking the car....it would be your own stupidity. not the shops.

everyone makes mistakes. the difference is that most shops dont allow the customer to be nearly as involved as we did in this case. a valuable lesson learned. next time, we will simply call the customer when the job is completed, rather than allowing them to give their input on the situation constantly.

Now im absolutely sure posting this thread was a good thing. If it assures me I wont be getting any work from people who want to resort to juvenile attacks when they are shown to be wrong....all the better for me.

Post as much as you like from this point on. Once someone shows me they cant discuss something as an adult (after accusing me of being the immature one no less) I simply bow out gracefully.

FormulaZR

iTrader: (7)

Run your business however you'd like and best of luck to you. I would like to point out, though, that you are the one who dodges the points I'm trying to make. Also, you were the one who decided to be disrespectful first when you said that I couldn't comprehend what you were saying. There is nothing left to debate with you, because no matter what is said you will still believe you are right. I just hope in the future, nobody takes anything to you that they would like back in a reasonable time frame. Sure, you might fix the problem, but over what time span? By the way...time is money, so you saying no cost isn't exactly a true statement, at least when you're the owner of the vehicle that is down for an extended period of time do to carelessness.

Mr.427

Jeff...buddy...your are wasting your time on some of these folks. Once the customer left your shop and your offer to fix everything at our cost he gave up any opportunity to recoupe any expenses. Perhaps your folks dropped the ball (really not clear) but once you offered to fix the problem at your expense you have done your part to solve the situation. That is one reason many shops will not install anything brought in by the customer for this very reason. Good luck to you in the future and welcome to the world of customer service....it will work on that very last nerve!