bolt on ls1 vs bolt on 5.0
03-30-2014, 11:18 PM
#141
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The LS1 is like 30yrs newer than the 351W and still hasn't caught up... Is that a win for GM?
No? Then it's even worse when we remember it hasn't caught up to the 4.6L either!
Hence, GM moved on and you should too, because it's intelligent. 
Yup... innovation, technology, whatever... Better.
Please! Not to mention the 3060 lb race weight, the quickest LS1 on the list you boys are discussing is the one with a TH400... That's just a little likely to be better for drag racing than a 4L60E or the Ford auto 6. How many of those Mustangs are using a C4? None, of course. Think how much faster they'd be with that swap.
Like I said, the LS1 is great, but GM knew better was available. Now it's time you figure it out and stop beating on the dead horse that is "LS1" because it won't matter how long you beat it, GM has better things to discuss. Besides, real races aren't limited to "what you like" and that means, since power adders have been around longer than you have, N/A doesn't even remotely matter in the world or racing. All it will ever be for the rest of time is... an "also ran."
No? Then it's even worse when we remember it hasn't caught up to the 4.6L either!
Hence, GM moved on and you should too, because it's intelligent. Yup... innovation, technology, whatever... Better.
Please! Not to mention the 3060 lb race weight, the quickest LS1 on the list you boys are discussing is the one with a TH400... That's just a little likely to be better for drag racing than a 4L60E or the Ford auto 6. How many of those Mustangs are using a C4? None, of course. Think how much faster they'd be with that swap.
Like I said, the LS1 is great, but GM knew better was available. Now it's time you figure it out and stop beating on the dead horse that is "LS1" because it won't matter how long you beat it, GM has better things to discuss. Besides, real races aren't limited to "what you like" and that means, since power adders have been around longer than you have, N/A doesn't even remotely matter in the world or racing. All it will ever be for the rest of time is... an "also ran."
No ****. That is called tuning the car. It doesn't change the fact that the long block is bone stock. No, that doesn't mean a tuned 5.0 is now more comparable to a cammed LSanything. Someday GM will move to an OHC V-8 that offers the same capabilities.
BTW - You say most bolt-on 5.0's run 12's....according to the list I posted earlier the number of bolt-on 5.0's running 11's is double those running 12's.
BTW - You say most bolt-on 5.0's run 12's....according to the list I posted earlier the number of bolt-on 5.0's running 11's is double those running 12's.
Move on to ohc......not so sure that is a positive yet. They have vvt.....have had vvt for years. The main problem is getting guys to accept it in the ls world. They are to caught up with shoving a cam in **** instead of utilizing that technology. Rhino did a good job utilizing it in his cam only 5th gen.
Not sure if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on type car. Pretty cool it can be done but I would like to know how much of a improvement basic style bolt-ons are worth w/o changing cam timing.
03-31-2014, 12:03 AM
#143
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Move on to ohc......not so sure that is a positive yet. They have vvt.....have had vvt for years. The main problem is getting guys to accept it in the ls world. They are to caught up with shoving a cam in **** instead of utilizing that technology. Rhino did a good job utilizing it in his cam only 5th gen.
Not sure if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on type car. Pretty cool it can be done but I would like to know how much of a improvement basic style bolt-ons are worth w/o changing cam timing.
Not sure if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on type car. Pretty cool it can be done but I would like to know how much of a improvement basic style bolt-ons are worth w/o changing cam timing.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...formance_test/
Ford's Ti-VCT is superior to vvt in that both the intake and exhaust cams can be adjusted independently. I.E. not stuck with a single profile (LCA) just advancing and retarding the cam. Not only can one maintain a smooth idle and part throttle driveability, a tuner can introduce more overlap in the upper RPM range for better scavenging. A tuner can also introduce overlap at idle to produce a lope.
A decent overview:
Regarding if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on car, for the reasons mentioned above it absolutely helps. In fact, some tuners are maniacle adjusting cam timing per mod. I.E. long tubes, different intake manifolds, etc.
Other's use their same cam timing regardless. Part of their canned tuned.
Personally I have run the same cam timing the entire time from when I had nothing but a tune on the car when it ran 11.88 until recently when it ran 10.75. I do think it would be worthwhile strapping my car to a dyno and doing a sweep on both sets of cams with the car's current setup. May be able to find a few extra HP here or there.
03-31-2014, 12:23 AM
#144
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In which class? If you're talking about something like C/S... you're high.
Uhhh... yeah... weird, ain't it...
Really? That's not a race to favor the LS1. N/A Mustangs have run 6's and we all know, nobody is doing that with an LS1. It's as if you don't have any idea what Ford engines have achieved over the years...oh, wait...
Again... YOU aren't sure... Listen up, DREAMER... Who's supposed to care... Indignation, defined...
Guy who doesn't matter chimes in to stalk others because he has no life or common sense. I also have a 408 c.i. N/A engine set up for nitrous... and you have... nothing that matters. Why don't you go stalk someone else, kiddo?
PS The Escape is turbocharged, so...
Uhhh... yeah... weird, ain't it...
Really? That's not a race to favor the LS1. N/A Mustangs have run 6's and we all know, nobody is doing that with an LS1. It's as if you don't have any idea what Ford engines have achieved over the years...oh, wait...
Not sure if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on type car. Pretty cool it can be done but I would like to know how much of a improvement basic style bolt-ons are worth w/o changing cam timing.
PS The Escape is turbocharged, so...
03-31-2014, 02:24 AM
#145
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Car in question has gutten cats not exhaust. Kid got busted on svt saying he had 500 hp. Then said he had the parts but not on the car.
Mph taking out a screen? Not for me. I gained less than that going with a 85maf and tune. If car had 323 gears going to 373s will do nothing on an a4. Seen it many times on stock and bolt on cars. A stock a4 at that Okie track like that kids is a 103-105mph car. Adding tune,no screen,lid,gutted cats will not gain 8 mph on an a4 with stock converter. That using Hio math is 80 rwhp. We are being just as bad as some of the 5.0bros accepting that.
Mph taking out a screen? Not for me. I gained less than that going with a 85maf and tune. If car had 323 gears going to 373s will do nothing on an a4. Seen it many times on stock and bolt on cars. A stock a4 at that Okie track like that kids is a 103-105mph car. Adding tune,no screen,lid,gutted cats will not gain 8 mph on an a4 with stock converter. That using Hio math is 80 rwhp. We are being just as bad as some of the 5.0bros accepting that.
Added a tune, and drag radials. As you can see tire really doesn't help having a stock stall. I dropped psi from 18 to 15 and 60 foot went from a 1.9 to 1.8, but I also lost 1 mph of trap.
Only changes between above timeslip is that I am on street tires, hence my 60 foot is not as good. But the DA was lower(but as you can see as the day progressed, it got warmer and da rose).
I did 315 whp with a drivability tune, tuned further and got 328 whp out of it. With the programmer I would have done 300-310 whp.
Friend dropped .2 tenths in the big end due to a better 60 foot by taking off the swaybar, so I'll do that next and shoot for 12.3's.
Last edited by 4PointSlow; 03-31-2014 at 02:37 AM.
03-31-2014, 02:50 AM
#146
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With headers, true duals, ported ls6, udp I should trap 115+ in good da if I have already trapped 113.
With a stall that's a mid 11 second pass trap speed.
BUT when my 8.8 is in I am going 3.55's.... So I can spray without running out of gear. Putting my old steel driveshaft back in probably too as a precaution since I do not have a DS safety loop.
I may lose up to ~2 mph because of weight(rotating and static) gain.... May also lose .1-.2 tenths of ET due to the longer gears.
But I'm doing 3.55's in preparation for the stall, heads/cam, and nitrous. The car is no longer my daily driver so I may start taking out some weight too.
With a stall that's a mid 11 second pass trap speed.
BUT when my 8.8 is in I am going 3.55's.... So I can spray without running out of gear. Putting my old steel driveshaft back in probably too as a precaution since I do not have a DS safety loop.
I may lose up to ~2 mph because of weight(rotating and static) gain.... May also lose .1-.2 tenths of ET due to the longer gears.
But I'm doing 3.55's in preparation for the stall, heads/cam, and nitrous. The car is no longer my daily driver so I may start taking out some weight too.
Last edited by 4PointSlow; 03-31-2014 at 03:08 AM.
03-31-2014, 06:55 AM
#149
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So much Ford butthurt in here. All of you 5.bro fanboys just refuse to believe that a 15+ year old Camaro is this quick with such little work done to it. Quicker than a 5.bro, a MODIFIED 5.bro at that. Can't blame the diver either, because how hard is it to drive an almost stock automatic car with DR's? And there is nothing out of the ordinary here at all. OP just has a car that has been well maintained and probably not beat to hell and back it's entire life. My mild bolt on, daily driving A4 LS1 whoops bolt on 5.bro's by more than OP did in his video. I remember laughing my *** off once when one of them asked me what Heads/Cam package I was running. Boy did he end up feeling stupid. Again, because the car has been well maintained and not abused. Anyone who believes that the 5.bro is leaps and bounds above the LS1 F-body is on a new level of ignorance.
Anyway, let the butthurt continue.
Anyway, let the butthurt continue.
03-31-2014, 07:14 AM
#151
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vvt offers advantages over a non-vvt single cam. Having the ability to advance or retard the cam on the fly will offer better drivability at low RPM with higher RPM performance. This article sums it up nicely:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...formance_test/
Ford's Ti-VCT is superior to vvt in that both the intake and exhaust cams can be adjusted independently. I.E. not stuck with a single profile (LCA) just advancing and retarding the cam. Not only can one maintain a smooth idle and part throttle driveability, a tuner can introduce more overlap in the upper RPM range for better scavenging. A tuner can also introduce overlap at idle to produce a lope.
A decent overview:
FORD Ti VCT Valve Timing - YouTube
Regarding if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on car, for the reasons mentioned above it absolutely helps. In fact, some tuners are maniacle adjusting cam timing per mod. I.E. long tubes, different intake manifolds, etc.
Other's use their same cam timing regardless. Part of their canned tuned.
Personally I have run the same cam timing the entire time from when I had nothing but a tune on the car when it ran 11.88 until recently when it ran 10.75. I do think it would be worthwhile strapping my car to a dyno and doing a sweep on both sets of cams with the car's current setup. May be able to find a few extra HP here or there.
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...formance_test/
Ford's Ti-VCT is superior to vvt in that both the intake and exhaust cams can be adjusted independently. I.E. not stuck with a single profile (LCA) just advancing and retarding the cam. Not only can one maintain a smooth idle and part throttle driveability, a tuner can introduce more overlap in the upper RPM range for better scavenging. A tuner can also introduce overlap at idle to produce a lope.
A decent overview:
FORD Ti VCT Valve Timing - YouTube
Regarding if cam timing should be changed on a bolt-on car, for the reasons mentioned above it absolutely helps. In fact, some tuners are maniacle adjusting cam timing per mod. I.E. long tubes, different intake manifolds, etc.
Other's use their same cam timing regardless. Part of their canned tuned.
Personally I have run the same cam timing the entire time from when I had nothing but a tune on the car when it ran 11.88 until recently when it ran 10.75. I do think it would be worthwhile strapping my car to a dyno and doing a sweep on both sets of cams with the car's current setup. May be able to find a few extra HP here or there.
03-31-2014, 08:54 AM
#153
I did 12.7 @ 109 mph before the tune, when I just had a programmer. I was getting misfire reading and cel after it hit the 2-3 limiter and it started bucking in 3rd... every run. Turned out the original spark plugs and wires with 140,000 miles on them were to blame. When I got a tune I lowered the commanded shift points and raised the limiter and diverted the issue, as well as did a tuneup.
Added a tune, and drag radials. As you can see tire really doesn't help having a stock stall. I dropped psi from 18 to 15 and 60 foot went from a 1.9 to 1.8, but I also lost 1 mph of trap.
Only changes between above timeslip is that I am on street tires, hence my 60 foot is not as good. But the DA was lower(but as you can see as the day progressed, it got warmer and da rose).
I did 315 whp with a drivability tune, tuned further and got 328 whp out of it. With the programmer I would have done 300-310 whp.
Friend dropped .2 tenths in the big end due to a better 60 foot by taking off the swaybar, so I'll do that next and shoot for 12.3's.
Added a tune, and drag radials. As you can see tire really doesn't help having a stock stall. I dropped psi from 18 to 15 and 60 foot went from a 1.9 to 1.8, but I also lost 1 mph of trap.
Only changes between above timeslip is that I am on street tires, hence my 60 foot is not as good. But the DA was lower(but as you can see as the day progressed, it got warmer and da rose).
I did 315 whp with a drivability tune, tuned further and got 328 whp out of it. With the programmer I would have done 300-310 whp.
Friend dropped .2 tenths in the big end due to a better 60 foot by taking off the swaybar, so I'll do that next and shoot for 12.3's.
With headers, true duals, ported ls6, udp I should trap 115+ in good da if I have already trapped 113.
With a stall that's a mid 11 second pass trap speed.
BUT when my 8.8 is in I am going 3.55's.... So I can spray without running out of gear. Putting my old steel driveshaft back in probably too as a precaution since I do not have a DS safety loop.
I may lose up to ~2 mph because of weight(rotating and static) gain.... May also lose .1-.2 tenths of ET due to the longer gears.
But I'm doing 3.55's in preparation for the stall, heads/cam, and nitrous. The car is no longer my daily driver so I may start taking out some weight too.
With a stall that's a mid 11 second pass trap speed.
BUT when my 8.8 is in I am going 3.55's.... So I can spray without running out of gear. Putting my old steel driveshaft back in probably too as a precaution since I do not have a DS safety loop.
I may lose up to ~2 mph because of weight(rotating and static) gain.... May also lose .1-.2 tenths of ET due to the longer gears.
But I'm doing 3.55's in preparation for the stall, heads/cam, and nitrous. The car is no longer my daily driver so I may start taking out some weight too.
Seems like you can't even get your story or your mods straight....
Here you say you have SSRA-hmmm you never mentioned that. Then you mention your future mods and this was back in December:
"
Going to have my ls6 ported, stall and built trans, maybe udp pulley next. Then suspension and weight reduction. I will do heads/cam later, there's no rush. I like to see what she has first. Would be nice to run 11's on stock manifolds, y pipe, catback! My friend did 11.8 with full exhaust and it's a 6 speed with 4.30s"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17915781
"Yes with ac, the ssra is already on though"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l#post17902994
In this thread you claim this...."At the very minimal a full bolt on ls1, especially a 6 speed, should trap 108". You are an auto. Now explain that one...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17932936
Here you admit you have a cut out....never mentioned that
"I trap 110-112 and I don't even have headers.... stock y pipe, stock catback. Intake/Gears/Tune/cutout"
Oh wait...you have a ported throttle body and brag how much you picked up with the cutout open... and mention you are getting ready to install a converter...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...es-cutout.html
Here you say you bought a N20 kit and ready to install:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...otb-video.html
So you at least let out that you have a ported TB,SSRA and cutout. Who knows what other bullshit you are leaving out.
I can tell you when I raced at that same track I lost two mph in the spring then compared to east coast tracks
That is an M6 car with a little guy driving it at a superfast track called Etown prepped like no other. Stop BSIng kid.
Last edited by Mike Morris; 03-31-2014 at 09:24 AM.
03-31-2014, 09:14 AM
#156
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Thread Starter
No ****. That is called tuning the car. It doesn't change the fact that the long block is bone stock. No, that doesn't mean a tuned 5.0 is now more comparable to a cammed LSanything. Someday GM will move to an OHC V-8 that offers the same capabilities.
BTW - You say most bolt-on 5.0's run 12's....according to the list I posted earlier the number of bolt-on 5.0's running 11's is double those running 12's.
BTW - You say most bolt-on 5.0's run 12's....according to the list I posted earlier the number of bolt-on 5.0's running 11's is double those running 12's.
geez that's sad. poor 5.br0's.
03-31-2014, 10:03 AM
#159
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Seems like you can't even get your story or your mods straight....
Here you say you have SSRA-hmmm you never mentioned that. Then you mention your future mods and this was back in December:
"Going to have my ls6 ported, stall and built trans, maybe udp pulley next. Then suspension and weight reduction. I will do heads/cam later, there's no rush. I like to see what she has first. Would be nice to run 11's on stock manifolds, y pipe, catback! My friend did 11.8 with full exhaust and it's a 6 speed with 4.30s"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17915781
"Yes with ac, the ssra is already on though"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l#post17902994
In this thread you claim this...."At the very minimal a full bolt on ls1, especially a 6 speed, should trap 108". You are an auto. Now explain that one...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17932936
Here you admit you have a cut out....never mentioned that
"I trap 110-112 and I don't even have headers.... stock y pipe, stock catback. Intake/Gears/Tune/cutout"
Oh wait...you have a ported throttle body and brag how much you picked up with the cutout open... and mention you are getting ready to install a converter...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...es-cutout.html
Here you say you bought a N20 kit and ready to install:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...otb-video.html
So you at least let out that you have a ported TB,SSRA and cutout. Who knows what other bullshit you are leaving out.
I can tell you when I raced at that same track I lost two mph in the spring then compared to east coast tracks
That is an M6 car with a little guy driving it at a superfast track called Etown prepped like no other. Stop BSIng kid.
Here you say you have SSRA-hmmm you never mentioned that. Then you mention your future mods and this was back in December:
"Going to have my ls6 ported, stall and built trans, maybe udp pulley next. Then suspension and weight reduction. I will do heads/cam later, there's no rush. I like to see what she has first. Would be nice to run 11's on stock manifolds, y pipe, catback! My friend did 11.8 with full exhaust and it's a 6 speed with 4.30s"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17915781
"Yes with ac, the ssra is already on though"
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...l#post17902994
In this thread you claim this...."At the very minimal a full bolt on ls1, especially a 6 speed, should trap 108". You are an auto. Now explain that one...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...l#post17932936
Here you admit you have a cut out....never mentioned that
"I trap 110-112 and I don't even have headers.... stock y pipe, stock catback. Intake/Gears/Tune/cutout"
Oh wait...you have a ported throttle body and brag how much you picked up with the cutout open... and mention you are getting ready to install a converter...
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...es-cutout.html
Here you say you bought a N20 kit and ready to install:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/street-ra...otb-video.html
So you at least let out that you have a ported TB,SSRA and cutout. Who knows what other bullshit you are leaving out.
I can tell you when I raced at that same track I lost two mph in the spring then compared to east coast tracks
That is an M6 car with a little guy driving it at a superfast track called Etown prepped like no other. Stop BSIng kid.
That's the big problem with being a youngster in this kind of car... you may not realize that nearly EVERYBODY you're telling stories to, has been there and done that... while you wore diapers.
People question this kid and he makes like... HoHo, telling everyone this is all normal. Like I said early on, he may not even know what mods were done before he got the car. It's not like it was new at the time.
