I got drug, and I'm butt hurt. Real butt hurt. Feelings hurt bad.
05-09-2014, 08:34 AM
#442
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I know all dynos can read different, but a friend of mine had Speed Inc fit his '10 SS LS3 with 238/244 cam, UD pulley, 1 7/8" long tubes, 3" ORX, Magnaflow catback, coldair intake, tuned on there Dynojet it made 475whp. Besides pushrods, plugs and wires the car was otherwise stock. That **** cost waaaaay over $1000. Not every "cam only" LS3 Camaro is getting 500whp, and certainly not for $1000. Heck a dyno tune usually costs $400-500 alone, cam itself is $350-425, not to mention all the gaskets and bolts that need replaced. $1000 for 500whp, who is that guy trying to fool?
05-09-2014, 09:02 AM
#443
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We are comparing the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote, let's not stray off topic.
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
05-09-2014, 10:13 AM
#444
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Who cares about a "normal dynojet" in the 1st place? The power can be figured by using the weight(3,030), the 1/4 mile ET(9.9) and the mph(137)... no actual dyno needed. That car SMASHED 550whp.
You claimed it didn't... you were wrong. Bottom line: As it stands, the Camaro SS simply cannot keep up with the Mustang GT in N/A racing or in FI racing. That's why each company makes other models... so they can be competitive.
The Z/28 is the best road course pony car available(as is) and the Shelby GT500 is the fastest available(as is).... The GT bests the SS and the 1LE bests the Track Pack... it's a game of give and take and you're NEVER going to have all the wins, simply because you dream big. Settle on the ZL1 and while your outward vision sucks, you will have the nicest overall pony car in a driver sense.
Max out the SS and the GT for straight line racing and the GT wins, period.
05-09-2014, 10:40 AM
#445
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05-09-2014, 10:50 AM
#446
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We are comparing the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote, let's not stray off topic.
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
What most usually want to compare in the furd world is a base 5.0 to a Camaro that comes standard with larger brakes. A proper comparison would be track pak 5.0 vs 1LE. A 1LE mops the floor with a 5.0 in every way, the only #'s that are even close is acceleration. It's why we see vids/times of 5.0 every where from mid 12's to not getting out of the 13's depending on options. Apparently weight kills them big time.......and it's easy to see why from those 2 tq curves.
05-09-2014, 11:16 AM
#447
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Cam only, to be understood in GM terms, means ... "I have a camshaft replacement, no cylinder head replacement, but every bolt-on part known to mankind installed... including headers and cat-back exhaust if not full exhaust."
"CAM ONLY" to a Mustang enthusiast, usually means... someone messed up and forgot several items.
"CAM ONLY" to a Mustang enthusiast, usually means... someone messed up and forgot several items.
05-09-2014, 11:32 AM
#448
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Cam only, to be understood in GM terms, means ... "I have a camshaft replacement, no cylinder head replacement, but every bolt-on part known to mankind installed... including headers and cat-back exhaust if not full exhaust."
"CAM ONLY" to a Mustang enthusiast, usually means... someone messed up and forgot several items.
"CAM ONLY" to a Mustang enthusiast, usually means... someone messed up and forgot several items.
05-09-2014, 12:00 PM
#449
What's f*cking retarded is that everyone seems to think every "cam only" car should all run a certain way. When "cam only" cars of the same model type can have completely different mods and run completely different. One car can have $1k in mods and the other $5k, yet 90% of the boneheads on this site think all cars should be about the same because they're both considered "cam only" and nothing else is specified.
05-09-2014, 12:09 PM
#450
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That's how it goes... If it's one way, I'm in... but I didn't make it up. There was a "cam only" thing long before there was an LS1 thing... It meant what it said, not what it does in the LS world... To be sure, people would look at you REAL FUNNY if you said your 1990 Mustang 5L was a "CAM ONLY" and you meant anything but... I had the cam swapped... I knew hundreds of guys, for example, who used stock Mustang P7 CRAPPY heads with even an "E" cam... that never did well, but that was what they did... a "CAM ONLY" and it was horrendous! 
Ask yourself... before you got into the LS scene, when did you ever hear anyone call their "build" a "cam only" and in that case, when did it mean what it does in the LS world? You know ....
Ask yourself... before you got into the LS scene, when did you ever hear anyone call their "build" a "cam only" and in that case, when did it mean what it does in the LS world? You know ....
05-09-2014, 12:10 PM
#451
What's f*cking retarded is that everyone seems to think every "cam only" car should all run a certain way. When "cam only" cars of the same model type can have completely different mods and run completely different. One car can have $1k in mods and the other $5k, yet 90% of the boneheads on this site think all cars should be about the same because they're both considered "cam only" and nothing else is specified.
05-09-2014, 12:20 PM
#452
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05-09-2014, 04:00 PM
#453
We are comparing the LS3 and the 5.0 Coyote, let's not stray off topic.
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
Here is a dynograph of a stock LS3 and a stock 5.0.
They make seem peak #'s, but under the curve there is simply no comparison. LS3 takes the cake.
The 5.0 would not do so well with the extra weight, 20-22 inch wheels, big brakes, etc. It's torque curve just isn't up to snuff with an LS3.
How is a 5th gen going to be faster with less power everywhere in the curve, as well as a 10% cut in torque throughout the curve on top of that?
Anyone that thinks a 5.0 is quicker then an LS3 in the same car is ******* delusional.
Peak numbers don't mean nearly as much at the track as they do in commercials. Power under the curve keeps a car accelerations, and the LS3 makes more power then a 5.0 EVERYWHERE, even when they peak the same.
05-09-2014, 04:48 PM
#454
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Peak numbers don't mean nearly as much at the track as they do in commercials. Power under the curve keeps a car accelerations, and the LS3 makes more power then a 5.0 EVERYWHERE, even when they peak the same.
05-09-2014, 05:29 PM
#456
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I know all dynos can read different, but a friend of mine had Speed Inc fit his '10 SS LS3 with 238/244 cam, UD pulley, 1 7/8" long tubes, 3" ORX, Magnaflow catback, coldair intake, tuned on there Dynojet it made 475whp. Besides pushrods, plugs and wires the car was otherwise stock. That **** cost waaaaay over $1000. Not every "cam only" LS3 Camaro is getting 500whp, and certainly not for $1000. Heck a dyno tune usually costs $400-500 alone, cam itself is $350-425, not to mention all the gaskets and bolts that need replaced. $1000 for 500whp, who is that guy trying to fool?
If modified correctly then it is easy to attain, just because someone has a poor setup doesn't mean it's the average.
I'm also not claiming 500+ whp is the average for cam only ls3s, it is however what they should be doing.
Last edited by 4PointSlow; 05-09-2014 at 05:35 PM.
05-09-2014, 05:32 PM
#457
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05-09-2014, 05:37 PM
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To that, sure... if EVERYTHING is equal otherwise. If both cars weighed 2500 lb, the LS engine would have more traction concerns, for example.
That all makes sense... except the 5L is still winning. You can't possibly think it's 100% about the 300ish lb weight difference. Sure, that can be 3/10ths, but there's much more to it than that. 3/10ths in the exact car is one thing... in an entirely different vehicle, it may not make the difference... The Mustang has a different gear set and that may just help acceleration over the long gearing in the heavy Tremec. Plus, rear gears can be optimized based on those trans gears.
That all makes sense... except the 5L is still winning. You can't possibly think it's 100% about the 300ish lb weight difference. Sure, that can be 3/10ths, but there's much more to it than that. 3/10ths in the exact car is one thing... in an entirely different vehicle, it may not make the difference... The Mustang has a different gear set and that may just help acceleration over the long gearing in the heavy Tremec. Plus, rear gears can be optimized based on those trans gears.
How is an engine with way less power/torque under the curve going to be faster?
05-09-2014, 06:14 PM
#459
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If modified correctly then it is easy to attain, just because someone has a poor setup doesn't mean it's the average.
In other words, TODAY, it's easy... because someone well ahead of you has already gone through all the trouble to make it... easy.
I'm also not claiming 500+ whp is the average for cam only ls3s, it is however what they should be doing.
How can any vehicle making less torque under curve manage to be faster... I could go with the easy answer and just remind you... they ARE.
That said, the engine making more power and more rpm can be an advantage and if the vehicles are both very lightweight, the engine making more torque down low will also have more traction issues. Traction issues can lead to losses.
As to how can this or that be faster... hp is the main factor in top speed... curve has no impact on top speed, just how quickly it's reached.
05-09-2014, 06:17 PM
#460
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Do you know the difference between a Coyote and a Roadrunner?
You're assuming the theoretical car isn't on tire. No traction issues cars on tire the LS will 60 foot harder.
If the car has long gears it also favors the LS over the 5.0... because of the 5.0s narrow powerband.
The LS3 will always be faster, it makes more power and torque everywhere in the curve.
Besides past 6k rpm, by that time the ls would have shifted and be making more power in the next gear.... whereas the 5.0 would fall out of its peaky powerband in the next gear.
You're assuming the theoretical car isn't on tire. No traction issues cars on tire the LS will 60 foot harder.
If the car has long gears it also favors the LS over the 5.0... because of the 5.0s narrow powerband.
The LS3 will always be faster, it makes more power and torque everywhere in the curve.
Besides past 6k rpm, by that time the ls would have shifted and be making more power in the next gear.... whereas the 5.0 would fall out of its peaky powerband in the next gear.