98 T/A vs Honda s2000
#101
#102
To address your points:
a) You are downplaying the handling performance of a fbody if you are saying its only place its making up ground is the straights. If the s2000 was so devasting around the corners, there would be enough corners (15 at thunderhill), for it to make up the difference in the few straights. The point is, a fbody isnt as slow around the corners as you make it out to be. It has inferior live axle rear, but this is less of a concern on a smooth racetrack surface as it is on the street. You also overlook the benefit of its excellent SLA front susp, wide track, and tire advantage.
b) your point about equal power makes no sense. We were comparing stock fbody against stock s2000. If you are going to equal the power, then why not let the fbody lose 400 lbs too?
c) It seems that a lot of ppl have different views on what handling is. I would agree that a s2000 is more pleasurable to drive around a road course than a fbody. But if you define "handling" by an objective measure, like laptimes, or who came first in a race, then the fbody isnt as inferior as you make it out to be. Last time I checked, road course races were determined by which car crossed the line first and not which handled more precisely. A lotus elise is probably more "flickable" and precise than a c6 z06... but a z06 will annhilate it around almost any road course... does the lotus "handle" better than a z06???
a) You are downplaying the handling performance of a fbody if you are saying its only place its making up ground is the straights. If the s2000 was so devasting around the corners, there would be enough corners (15 at thunderhill), for it to make up the difference in the few straights. The point is, a fbody isnt as slow around the corners as you make it out to be. It has inferior live axle rear, but this is less of a concern on a smooth racetrack surface as it is on the street. You also overlook the benefit of its excellent SLA front susp, wide track, and tire advantage.
b) your point about equal power makes no sense. We were comparing stock fbody against stock s2000. If you are going to equal the power, then why not let the fbody lose 400 lbs too?
c) It seems that a lot of ppl have different views on what handling is. I would agree that a s2000 is more pleasurable to drive around a road course than a fbody. But if you define "handling" by an objective measure, like laptimes, or who came first in a race, then the fbody isnt as inferior as you make it out to be. Last time I checked, road course races were determined by which car crossed the line first and not which handled more precisely. A lotus elise is probably more "flickable" and precise than a c6 z06... but a z06 will annhilate it around almost any road course... does the lotus "handle" better than a z06???
An fbody doesnt handle more precisely than an S2000. The only reason a camaro pulls quicker times, is do to the straight aways. Given equal power and equal drivers, the results would be different. Not taking anything away from the camaro, it just doesnt compare. Let me give you another situation. The camaro also best the lotus/miata around the same track, but are you going to tell me, it outhandles a lotus/miata? I sure hope not. Power plays a huge roll on the straights. And this enables you to regain the advantage you lost on the twisties. Having a 600-700lb advantage, saves on tires, brakes and suspension in the long run.
Last edited by nfa; 10-24-2007 at 10:24 AM. Reason: some grammar mistakes.
#103
There is a difference between theory and practice. A rear engine set up behind the axle is also a theoretically inferior set up, yet through evolution and engineering, porsche has somehow managed to make some very fine handling cars. Macpherson struts are also an inferior suspension layout (gaining camber as cornering loads increase), yet M3's sport them and they seem to do ok on road courses...
#104
To address your points:
a) You are downplaying the handling performance of a fbody if you are saying its only place its making up ground is the straights. If the s2000 was so devasting around the corners, there would be enough corners (15 at thunderhill), for it to make up the difference in the few straights. The point is, a fbody isnt as slow around the corners as you make it out to be. It has inferior live axle rear, but this is less of a concern on a smooth racetrack surface as it is on the street. You also overlook the benefit of its excellent SLA front susp, wide track, and tire advantage.
b) your point about equal power makes no sense. We were comparing stock fbody against stock s2000. If you are going to equal the power, then why not let the fbody lose 400 lbs too?
c) It seems that a lot of ppl have different views on what handling is. I would agree that a s2000 is more pleasurable to drive around a road course than a fbody. But if you define "handling" by an objective measure, like laptimes, or who came first in a race, then the fbody isnt as inferior as you make it out to be. Last time I checked, road course races were determined by which car crossed the line first and now what handled more precisely. A lotus elise is probably more "flickable" and precise than a c6 z06... but a z06 will annhilate it around almost any road course... does the lotus "handle" better than a z06???
a) You are downplaying the handling performance of a fbody if you are saying its only place its making up ground is the straights. If the s2000 was so devasting around the corners, there would be enough corners (15 at thunderhill), for it to make up the difference in the few straights. The point is, a fbody isnt as slow around the corners as you make it out to be. It has inferior live axle rear, but this is less of a concern on a smooth racetrack surface as it is on the street. You also overlook the benefit of its excellent SLA front susp, wide track, and tire advantage.
b) your point about equal power makes no sense. We were comparing stock fbody against stock s2000. If you are going to equal the power, then why not let the fbody lose 400 lbs too?
c) It seems that a lot of ppl have different views on what handling is. I would agree that a s2000 is more pleasurable to drive around a road course than a fbody. But if you define "handling" by an objective measure, like laptimes, or who came first in a race, then the fbody isnt as inferior as you make it out to be. Last time I checked, road course races were determined by which car crossed the line first and now what handled more precisely. A lotus elise is probably more "flickable" and precise than a c6 z06... but a z06 will annhilate it around almost any road course... does the lotus "handle" better than a z06???
#105
#106
#107
I dont need to ask the opinion of autocrossers. I respect the sport, but cone dodging in a parking lot isnt for me. I attend a few hpde/ open track days each year. as i might have stated in this or another thread involving s2000's, actually yes, i do have seat time in a s2000... a turbocharged one at that - at shannonville motorsports park. I know they handle well. And having open tracked my own fbody, I know that on larger tracks, we can equal and surpass s2000's. I dont remember ever saying that fbodys>s2000s at all racetracks.
#108
Yes, but you did imply that the F-body was faster around the track for reasons OTHER than superior straightline speed. The S2000 handles/brakes better, and the only reason an F-body would be faster around a track is superior straightline speed. It handles well enough to be able to make up the difference, but not comparable to an S2000.
#109
An fbody doesnt handle more precisely than an S2000. The only reason a camaro pulls quicker times, is do to the straight aways. Given equal power and equal drivers, the results would be different. Not taking anything away from the camaro, it just doesnt compare. Let me give you another situation. The camaro also best the lotus/miata around the same track, but are you going to tell me, it outhandles a lotus/miata? I sure hope not. Power plays a huge roll on the straights. And this enables you to regain the advantage you lost on the twisties. Having a 600-700lb advantage, saves on tires, brakes and suspension in the long run.
#110
That or he really is "pissy Chrissy" (25/45 psi) with yet another username so that he can come on here and start ****.
#111
Are you refering to me?
#112
Autocrosses are a totally different world all together!! Most of the courses around here have turns with radii smaller than the wheelbase of f bodies! DUH! No wonder your little tiny cars do better. They would kill f bodies on this type of course (as well as "go kart" tracks) even if the domestics were allowed to use; "great" independent rear suspensions, 16" wide full race slicks, 2500# weight minimums, etc.!!!
#113
Now, are you the one who everyone is calling out/blasting in this thread?? Really, how could you even think I was referring to you?!!
As far as I know, NightWindDriftr was NOT referring to you with his post (which I quoted), so I don't even understand where you got this idea.
Maybe it's because I'm still perplexed as to why I keep getting bashed/lambasted/dissed by the Blue Ovals on here for not worshipping/loving/defending import nameplates (as most of them on here, it seems, do), while defending/respecting Ford (and other domestic nameplate products).
Do all of you just figure that the GM hatred against you is soooo great that you "might as well" side with/team up with the imports against us?? And yes, I will admit, I'm just as baffled by the GM owners on here that say, "I will own a riced out Civic as my ONLY ride, before I own a "Mudstain"<--.
Of course, all of the above is moot if your username does not refer to the Ford engine I think it does (or if you really ARE 25/45psi/pssonu/"Chrissy" ).
As far as I know, NightWindDriftr was NOT referring to you with his post (which I quoted), so I don't even understand where you got this idea.
Maybe it's because I'm still perplexed as to why I keep getting bashed/lambasted/dissed by the Blue Ovals on here for not worshipping/loving/defending import nameplates (as most of them on here, it seems, do), while defending/respecting Ford (and other domestic nameplate products).
Do all of you just figure that the GM hatred against you is soooo great that you "might as well" side with/team up with the imports against us?? And yes, I will admit, I'm just as baffled by the GM owners on here that say, "I will own a riced out Civic as my ONLY ride, before I own a "Mudstain"<--.
Of course, all of the above is moot if your username does not refer to the Ford engine I think it does (or if you really ARE 25/45psi/pssonu/"Chrissy" ).
Last edited by dailydriver; 10-24-2007 at 03:13 PM.
#114
c) It seems that a lot of ppl have different views on what handling is. I would agree that a s2000 is more pleasurable to drive around a road course than a fbody. But if you define "handling" by an objective measure, like laptimes, or who came first in a race, then the fbody isnt as inferior as you make it out to be. Last time I checked, road course races were determined by which car crossed the line first and not which handled more precisely. A lotus elise is probably more "flickable" and precise than a c6 z06... but a z06 will annhilate it around almost any road course... does the lotus "handle" better than a z06???
Handling is generally how much speed you can hold in a turn. The Elise might be able to hold a little more speed through some turns, and have sharper responses, but thats not going to make up for the big power and just as good, if not better braking the Z06 has. Thats why a Z06 would be in front of an Elise on most tracks.
#115
Not to nitpick, but actually a camaro ss brakes from 60-0 in 129 feet, compared to the s2000's 134 feet, according to r&t in the same test that showed the ss lapping faster than the s2k.
It handles well enough to lap faster than a s2000 depending on the track. Sorry, that is fact and not opinion.
Results from this years scca runoffs in touring class - basically safety mods...
T3 - where s2000's race http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/SSB_T31.pdf Fastest s2k - 1:50's
T2 - where the fbodies race http://www.scca.com/documents/result..._T2_Qual_1.pdf Fastest fbody 1:47's Of course, not the same driver, but at the national level, you expect the variance between drivers to be smaller than at your run of the mill track day.
*off topic.. wow that soltice is fast.
It handles well enough to lap faster than a s2000 depending on the track. Sorry, that is fact and not opinion.
Results from this years scca runoffs in touring class - basically safety mods...
T3 - where s2000's race http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/SSB_T31.pdf Fastest s2k - 1:50's
T2 - where the fbodies race http://www.scca.com/documents/result..._T2_Qual_1.pdf Fastest fbody 1:47's Of course, not the same driver, but at the national level, you expect the variance between drivers to be smaller than at your run of the mill track day.
*off topic.. wow that soltice is fast.
Yes, but you did imply that the F-body was faster around the track for reasons OTHER than superior straightline speed. The S2000 handles/brakes better, and the only reason an F-body would be faster around a track is superior straightline speed. It handles well enough to be able to make up the difference, but not comparable to an S2000.
Last edited by nfa; 10-25-2007 at 11:30 AM.
#116
Not to nitpick, but actually a camaro ss brakes from 60-0 in 129 feet, compared to the s2000's 134 feet, according to r&t in the same test that showed the ss lapping faster than the s2k.
It handles well enough to lap faster than a s2000 depending on the track. Sorry, that is fact and not opinion.
Results from this years scca runoffs in touring class - basically safety mods...
T3 - where s2000's race http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/SSB_T31.pdf Fastest s2k - 1:50's
T2 - where the fbodies race http://www.scca.com/documents/result..._T2_Qual_1.pdf Fastest fbody 1:47's Of course, not the same driver, but at the national level, you expect the variance between drivers to be smaller than at your run of the mill track day.
It handles well enough to lap faster than a s2000 depending on the track. Sorry, that is fact and not opinion.
Results from this years scca runoffs in touring class - basically safety mods...
T3 - where s2000's race http://www.scca.com/documents/resultfiles/SSB_T31.pdf Fastest s2k - 1:50's
T2 - where the fbodies race http://www.scca.com/documents/result..._T2_Qual_1.pdf Fastest fbody 1:47's Of course, not the same driver, but at the national level, you expect the variance between drivers to be smaller than at your run of the mill track day.
Those little imports were !! A faster lap is a faster lap, the import lovers/defenders can argue all they want, but that much IS FACT!!
#117
As far as braking is concerned, for one I don't like using magazine tests, as they are all over the place. And if you want to, 134ft for the S2000 is probably the worst I've ever seen. But you're absolutely right... because the S2000 recorded a slower time on that track than the F-body, the F-body obviously handles just as well as the S2000 if not better. I mean afterall, the S2000 only weighs 500lbs less, has a vastly-superior suspension design, and has better structural rigidity. But you're right... we're all just "import lovers/defenders." Get real...
#118
Stop those racist comments
I am Mexican you dumb ****, and a lot of members here.
So please dont take this kid`s stupidity and assume hes a Mexican.
#120
But you're absolutely right... because the S2000 recorded a slower time on that track than the F-body, the F-body obviously handles just as well as the S2000 if not better. I mean afterall, the S2000 only weighs 500lbs less, has a vastly-superior suspension design, and has better structural rigidity. But you're right... we're all just "import lovers/defenders." Get real...
It's nice/great that "your" little import "handles better" than my big, heavy, "ill handling mulletmobile".<- It's also nice/great to get across the finish line first (even in your "twisties", on "your" road courses).