libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

I would need to confirm, but "Mark" appears to be Mark Hotchkis I spoke with:
http://www.hotchkis.net/press_release.html?ID=30



I think Sam needs to start going on some TV shows, like Jay's Garage and/or the Tonight Show, etc.! Get a little more exposure...


I plan a follow-up call with Hotchkis to ask a few more pressing questions -- no alleged superiority discussions yet.


One question I have with an adjustable sway is, similar to a bolt-on SFCs, isn't there a real potential for the bolt holes for adjustment to become egg-shaped and rounded out over time bringing in undesirable free-play?

Element

iTrader: (5)

You still have to overcome clamping force to allow the bolts to rotate. If you torque things properly and use either nylocks or Loctite, there shouldn't be any problems ovaling bolt holes. You also have to consider that since the sway bar and end link are designed to flex, you don't have the same dynamic as bolting two fixed pieces together that may see stress loading.

I've had a set of bolt-on SFCs on my car for years, and the holes were still as round as when they were new when I pulled them off the car a couple weeks ago.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Let me say this... Hotchkis puts on their website how they go to regional SCCA events to test things, and they win. They put up how their stuff wins on cars that "autocross" @ Goodguys shows (in quotes because it's not exactly the same as what I do, smaller courses, street tires, etc.), yet he doesn't know of someone who wins SCCA National Championships....

Here's what's better: One of their featured drivers who has a older Camaro (as well as other car) is also a multiple time SCCA National Champion... and when it was time to setup her last new car--I did it. That car is now sold and lives in New Jersey.

I don't much care if Mark Hotchkis has heard of me, that seems to bother you more than it does me. I'm just saying that maybe he should pay more attention. And the person I spoke of above is the one that told me that John knows of me.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

A couple more points from Hotchkis: Made in California, 3yr 36k mi. Warranty (doesn't cover wear items like bushings). Their stiffest rear adjustable setting is the same as their non-adj. 1in. bar. They do not currently have anyone running their F-Body bars in SCCA/Autocross, but do in other cars. They mentioned Chromoly is better for sheer strength, not torsional strength (so better for roll cages for thing tubing walls for instance). They also said they do not use the standard GM axle mounts as new ones are included, and their bushing brackets have grease fittings.

What is the Strano sway bars warranty?

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Good faith is the warranty... *IF* have a problem, I'll take care of it. I don't really put a time limit on it. I can't warranty bushings either. In fact how about this... if you break one of my bars, 1 million miles from now, I'll replace it. Does that make you happy?

My bars are also made in California, not that should really matter to the performance of the bar, or the warranty either.... <scratches head>

FWIW, you might want to read the warranty policy.. Doesn't apply on a car that's been modified (odd since the installation of such a part means the car has been modified). No good on a car that's carried too much weigh. Installation has to be done by a certified mechanic (this is all coming off of the Hotchkis warranty policy), etc.

I'm done liberty1776. You've continually broken my ***** over this. And it's come down to crap like this? For the final time---if you think those bars are better, then run those instead. That's a big reason I sell other bars than my own, so folks have choices and frankly it's not worth the effort--I have better things to do with my time than these tedious discussions.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

A question for UMI: any plans to make your billet mounts for the Strano rear-adjustable sway bars?

Element

iTrader: (5)

One thing you'll find if you look around is that the OEM stamped-style bushing mounts that are drilled and fitted with grease zerks are prone to cracking around the zerk hole. UMI makes a billet set that are much stronger than the stamped style and have grease zerks, but they're a little expensive.

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

libertyforall1776, if you haven't made up your mind by now,you probably never will.
Hotchkis makes a good product, but it's usually over priced. IMO, I don't see anything on the Hotchkis bars (what I have) that the Strano sway-bars don't offer for less. I went with the Hotchkis sway set bars back in 1999 when no one else made a comparable hollow set of sway bars. In the last year or so when I went with the Hotchkis rear adjustable bar, again no one else made a comparable hollow adjustable rear bar, even Strano only had a solid adj rear bar (Hellwig) at the time. And to the best of my knowledge the adjustable hollow bar he offers now is from Hellwig also.
Hellwig has been around for a long time making sway bar, so you know it not made by a no-name company that might not have a proven track record in the suspension business.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

So the moment of candor -- before this thread, I thought I was going with Strano's sways, but had to consider Hotchkis and flush out the plusses/minuses, plus I still wonder if the Hotchkis bigger front sway might be better for me, yet overpriced. Edelbrock still has a lighter front 35mm hollow bar for about the same cost at 21 lbs shipping weight vs. 24.3 lbs shipping weight for Strano's -- how much that matters, well hard decision. The front bar is the harder decision, IMHO.

At this point I am going with Strano's bars -- he has really provided a lot of invaluable info on this and many other topics, and plus he's the only one really pushing any brand of bars to the limits competitively, AFAIK. If I still feel I want more front sway after trying Strano's, well it's test and tune time...

Thanks for all the inputs.

PS: Why can't more parts vendors, of all types, be more like Strano -- he really does the community a great service. So thanks to Sam!

Element

iTrader: (5)

Why would the bigger bar be better for you? What variables make you think you need a stiffer front bar? Why would Sam's bar not be stiff enough?

I'm not nearly a suspension expert, not even close, but as you increase the stiffness, you decrease body roll, which in turn reduces weight transfer, which can (at least, as the physics are working in my head) reduce tire grip on the outboard tire in a turn, allowing the car to be more prone to understeer and less stable in real-world corners (the ones with bumps and uneven pavement and the like). I may be wrong and if I am I hope one of the suspension guys can tell me why, but without taking into consideration what tires you're running, what shocks and springs, what type of road you're on, and how the car reacts to different inputs, it would be nearly impossible for one person to determine, on paper, whether a specific bar is too stiff or too soft, and even in the real world, you'd need to run different combinations of each to determine whether what you thought was great is really only mediocre. That's where track time, and tuning and tweaking come in to play, and Sam has a lot of that.

3lbs is absolutely nothing in the real world. Are you wearing jeans and a jacket instead of shorts and sandals? 3lbs right there. Unless there was a glaringly large discrepancy between the weights, it wouldn't even be a factor for me to consider. The whole weight savings argument hurts my head anyway when the people talking about doing it are still driving around with a battery up front and the spare and jack under the hatch panel.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

LibertyForAll, are you like in college going for some sort of science or tough engineering degree by any chance? Just curious

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

That's true... when he gets out on the course he'll realize how much time he's wasting nitpicking about a tiny bit of weight difference and stiffness when he should spend more time getting practice and seat time

For daily driving, this little bit of difference is COMPLETELY irellevant.

99FormulaM6r

iTrader: (2)

If you really want to save weight and if 3 lbs. here or there is going to kill you, then why don't you drain your windshield wiper fluid, run with as little gas in your tank as possible, and to maximize performance you might as well drive naked.....

I know it's important to save weight where you can, but spending an extra $$$ on +/- 3 lbs. or so is pretty silly.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

Hellwig does make my bars for me.... but they are my bars... They are not the same as their production bars. There are differences in the details (like some mounting hardware, bushings, coatings, etc as well as the sizes and wall thicknesses. I don't make the bars myself... Hellwig also makes bars for the US Military and the US Border Patrol for their vehicles (including MRAP's).

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Haha, long since graduated -- Comp. Sci. & Telecom Major, now Project Mgt. -- Dad was an EE (and muscle car guy when HE was younger), so I got the engineering and do-it-yourself perspective at an early age... Apple doesn't fall too far from the tree?

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

You know, I can't argue with that.

On the flipside, I want to do due diligence before sinking $100s into upgrade parts -- would be nice to make a good choice off the bat, ya know?!

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

Thanks for the correction Sam, so they truly are Strano Sway bars!
That's really good to hear, keep up the great work Sam.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

It's all good. Have you gone to an autox yet or some type of race event? If you start going to a few events, I think it will completely change your outlook on car modification and purpose.

Not to mention the whole deal with "tuning to your own preference". This is sort of the idea that I think we're all trying to get you to understand. We can't help you decide what's better. What's the "best"? Whatever works the best for you.

Last year I decided to try a different rear swaybar. At the track I was spinning out a lot. My car was becoming harder to control. I did a few things at once to help correct it. Went from the 22mm rear bar to a stock 19mm bar and also put on fresh new 555r tires in the rear. Since then I've been buying new tires at the beginning of each season. Did the rear bar help? I kind of don't know really with solid proof. It was such a small difference that I can't tell much feeling-wise. Though I haven't spun out since. This obviously isn't the 22mm Strano bar, but I think my setup feels good for me for my racing application. The suspension does what I want it to do..

Travis Johnson

iTrader: (2)

I wish. An engineer works out the answer to his own questions, not ask other people to answer them over and over until he gets the exact answer he wants. I did the engineering in the chromoly thread to show it's not a superior material for sway bars, but apparently he is immune to science.

liberty should be a pollster, he is fantastic at asking the exact same question thousands of times. And he apparently needs a statistically significant sample before making a decision.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Funny, but Edelbrock, as big a company as they are, still has a strong opinion on their front CM sway:
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_...swaybars.shtml


If you want to pay for my sway bars, I would not have to ask any questions, as I would have worked out the answer.

Anyone who just throws money at parts without asking all their questions first is foolish. A wise man once said, "a fool and their money are soon departed".