Suspension/rod end rant + what I'm doing to fix it
05-09-2011, 10:03 AM
#101
12 Second Club
iTrader: (16)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Atascocita Tx
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lol I just replaced my front upper and lower control arms along with all new shocks springs and ball joints.....Makes me never wanna do it again....haha Good job for keeping up with it
05-09-2011, 05:25 PM
#102
LOL I know the pain!
I'm gonna do it again-partially-this weekend. It sits just a tad too low for me. I'm gonna slip those 1/4 inch spacers between the shock and LCA back in. That should do it.
The front end was bouncy with the stock springs. This seems to be somewhat cured with the Vogtland springs. It's still a bit bouncy but much more manageable.
I'm gonna do it again-partially-this weekend. It sits just a tad too low for me. I'm gonna slip those 1/4 inch spacers between the shock and LCA back in. That should do it.
The front end was bouncy with the stock springs. This seems to be somewhat cured with the Vogtland springs. It's still a bit bouncy but much more manageable.
05-10-2011, 04:43 PM
#103
Being I'm the suspension guy who was un-named, here's the deal. You had a set of springs that was X height, you changed a lot of stuff--but not the springs and your height goes way up. You want to put lowering springs on to drop it... but with the caveat that the car rides the best it can. Well, lowering springs are you know, stiffer than stock springs.
I was frustrated by the fact you didn't seem to grasp that you have issues stemming from the other parts (since the springs up to that point had not changed) and that because you were worried about ride I didn't think lowering springs and the associated rate was the best thing to do. So sorry for trying to think it through. Had you said to me that ride wasn't a big concern, it might have been a different story. I'll own it, because I was trying to tell you that your massive increase in height WAS NOT A SPRING ISSUE. You cured it with springs. Great. Sorry I didn't want to band-aid it and instead was looking for the culprit.
I was frustrated by the fact you didn't seem to grasp that you have issues stemming from the other parts (since the springs up to that point had not changed) and that because you were worried about ride I didn't think lowering springs and the associated rate was the best thing to do. So sorry for trying to think it through. Had you said to me that ride wasn't a big concern, it might have been a different story. I'll own it, because I was trying to tell you that your massive increase in height WAS NOT A SPRING ISSUE. You cured it with springs. Great. Sorry I didn't want to band-aid it and instead was looking for the culprit.
__________________
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
www.stranoparts.com --814-849-3450
Results matter. Talk is cheap. We are miles beyond the success anyone else has had with the 4th gens, and C5, C6, C7 Corvettes,
10 SCCA Solo National Championships, 2008 Driver of they Year, 2012 Driver of Eminence
13 SCCA Pro Solo Nationals Championships
2023 UMI King of the Mountain Champion
07-16-2011, 10:48 PM
#104
OK guys, it’s update time again.
My ride height turned out to be more difficult to fix than I realized. I had spoken to several people in the know and everybody suggested the same thing. The cure to the ride height was to make the move to adjustable coil-overs. I went with the HAL/QA1 setup, single adjustables and their 300 pound springs. This allowed me to adjust the height to exactly where I want it and adjust the shocks to eliminate the bounciness that I had with the Billstiens.
Lower control arm bolts. They kept allowing the arms to move in the chassis. As it turns out, aftermarket bushings have a much smaller center section surface area. Stock bushings have a large hardened serrated face washer pressed onto the ends of the center tube of the bushings. These washers bite and lock into the inside of the chassis bushing pockets. GM used them for good reason. As the aftermarket stuff doesn’t have these washers, hard driving/rough roads will cause them to move around regardless how tight you make the bolts.
I came up with the solution. First, I ordered some ARP grade 8 bolts to replace the stock bolts. 1/2-20 is the size & thread. Then I found some distorted thread flange face lock nuts. Then I got some old school GM bumper bracket washers. They’re slightly cupped so when tightened down on, they act as a spring to maintain torque. They have teeth on the edge to bite into the surface being clamped. These washers are called “ratchet washers”. GM, Ford and Mopar have all used these washers, occasionally also for suspension components.
I think Mr. Carrol Smith (R.I.P.) would be proud of me as I have his book almost committed to memory.
These nuts, washers and bolts torqued to 110 ft-pounds finally keeps all my stuff from moving around.
Alignment: The Global West upper control arms seem to give more negative camber (wheels tipped inwards) than stock. I went to an alignment guy who does custom cars, race and track cars and “difficult” cars. Mine fell into the difficult group. A trick that needs to be done on many cars is to tip the wheel hub out with shims. The racing aftermarket actually makes shim kits for hubs on some cars. After shimming out the hubs (and the brake calipers to match) he was able to get the alignment dead on. All by measurements, bubble levels, eyeball and years of experience. I’ll never go to anybody who uses the computerized system ever again.
I’m very happy with the Delrin bushings in my front end. The UMI Rotojoints in the caster bushing locations seem to be hanging in there, I’m greasing them and everything else once a month. The new bolt/washer/nut setup is holding it all together.
I think I can finally, FINALLY say I’ve built a bulletproof front suspension that’ll stay put and not wear out, loosen up or get noisy/squeaky/rattle. The car handles just great and it’s been a month since I did all this and it’s still perfect.
My ride height turned out to be more difficult to fix than I realized. I had spoken to several people in the know and everybody suggested the same thing. The cure to the ride height was to make the move to adjustable coil-overs. I went with the HAL/QA1 setup, single adjustables and their 300 pound springs. This allowed me to adjust the height to exactly where I want it and adjust the shocks to eliminate the bounciness that I had with the Billstiens.
Lower control arm bolts. They kept allowing the arms to move in the chassis. As it turns out, aftermarket bushings have a much smaller center section surface area. Stock bushings have a large hardened serrated face washer pressed onto the ends of the center tube of the bushings. These washers bite and lock into the inside of the chassis bushing pockets. GM used them for good reason. As the aftermarket stuff doesn’t have these washers, hard driving/rough roads will cause them to move around regardless how tight you make the bolts.
I came up with the solution. First, I ordered some ARP grade 8 bolts to replace the stock bolts. 1/2-20 is the size & thread. Then I found some distorted thread flange face lock nuts. Then I got some old school GM bumper bracket washers. They’re slightly cupped so when tightened down on, they act as a spring to maintain torque. They have teeth on the edge to bite into the surface being clamped. These washers are called “ratchet washers”. GM, Ford and Mopar have all used these washers, occasionally also for suspension components.
I think Mr. Carrol Smith (R.I.P.) would be proud of me as I have his book almost committed to memory.
These nuts, washers and bolts torqued to 110 ft-pounds finally keeps all my stuff from moving around.
Alignment: The Global West upper control arms seem to give more negative camber (wheels tipped inwards) than stock. I went to an alignment guy who does custom cars, race and track cars and “difficult” cars. Mine fell into the difficult group. A trick that needs to be done on many cars is to tip the wheel hub out with shims. The racing aftermarket actually makes shim kits for hubs on some cars. After shimming out the hubs (and the brake calipers to match) he was able to get the alignment dead on. All by measurements, bubble levels, eyeball and years of experience. I’ll never go to anybody who uses the computerized system ever again.
I’m very happy with the Delrin bushings in my front end. The UMI Rotojoints in the caster bushing locations seem to be hanging in there, I’m greasing them and everything else once a month. The new bolt/washer/nut setup is holding it all together.
I think I can finally, FINALLY say I’ve built a bulletproof front suspension that’ll stay put and not wear out, loosen up or get noisy/squeaky/rattle. The car handles just great and it’s been a month since I did all this and it’s still perfect.
Last edited by Paul Bell; 07-17-2011 at 12:58 PM.
07-17-2011, 12:59 PM
#105
Ive been following your thread since the beginning. Some very nice work and creative ideas. While I hope I will never get to the point of hating my aftermarket suspension since its just a weekend/nice day car... Your information is very useful to me none the less. 
07-22-2011, 01:45 PM
#106
TECH Enthusiast
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Long Island NY
Posts: 530
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Keep an eye on those shock mounts on those front lower control arms. I had a similar design from another company start to bend and fail. Ended up going back to stock arms and the g/w weld in kit.
07-22-2011, 02:04 PM
#107
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Land of the Mormon's although I'm not one of them
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a side note for those with rod ends. I didn't read the whole thread.
They do make rod-end seals that go between the spacers and ball of the rod end; they're typically used for dirt-track racing to keep the muck out of the joint. I used these seals, and QA1 rod ends on my car for easily 20,000 HARD miles and the rod ends were still as good as new. What causes rod ends to fail/loosen up is debris; and anything you can do to seal the ball up from crap will help lengthen the life of the rod end.
They do make rod-end seals that go between the spacers and ball of the rod end; they're typically used for dirt-track racing to keep the muck out of the joint. I used these seals, and QA1 rod ends on my car for easily 20,000 HARD miles and the rod ends were still as good as new. What causes rod ends to fail/loosen up is debris; and anything you can do to seal the ball up from crap will help lengthen the life of the rod end.
