LS1HIGHLIFE

iTrader: (8)

I have BMR's first gen lowering spring with Bilsteins and am seriously considering going with Strano's springs and Konis. The BMR's slammed my car too much (2") and they are rough as hell on the kidneys.

-Sam, what is your take on the BMR first gens? I hear their newer springs are a little softer but still drop the car a good bit.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

No fan of those springs, certainly not the first gen springs, which is why mine were not the same. The "new" springs are different, and amazingly much more like what I make (gee I wonder why), except for being cheap copies and if the recent thread on here where they rated springs shows the rates aren't exactly what are claimed either.

Yes, I think my springs are a lot better. I mean they were good enough for others to change what they previously claimed were "the best" to something more like I make. It smells a little copy-cat to me and disingenuous anyway since either the old stuff wasn't the best, or I had a better idea. Neither of which anyone will admit.

I think even if you stayed on the Bilstein's I'd be better. But the Bilstein's aren't ideal... they aren't new (when they are ok, not perfect by any means). Are Koni's cheap? Nope, though they may become somewhat more palatable in the near future. On the other hand, buying 2 sets of cheaper shocks isn't any cheaper in the end either.

Strano/Koni are pretty well proven. I have not changed my springs because someone came up with something better. I've been using and teaming Koni's with them for a long time too. Much longer than some of those others have even sold Koni. Hell I've been winning events on Koni's for a decade before some vendors picked up the line.

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

Sam,
You claim that BMR stole your spring design, but you always forget to mention that BMR was using a 550 pound spring rate for 4 years before you designed your springs. We picked that spring rate FIRST...4 YEARS BEFORE YOU. 4 YEARS!! Why did you pick a 550 pound spring rate for your front spring? You always avoid this question. I wonder if you will answer that today.

Yes, BMR switched from a progressive rate front spring to a linear rate front spring. However, I was unaware that you invented the linear spring.

BMR also switched from a 1" drop to a 1.25" drop. That's the look that the 4th gen customer currently prefers. When it comes to cosmetics, BMR listens to the customer and gives them what they want.

The current BMR front spring looks very similar to your front spring. As you know, spring rate determines coil spacing and coil wire diameter. If you didn't copy the BMR spring rate, our springs would look different.

BMR spring rates are within 1-2% of the advertised rate, well below the variance offered by most spring manufacturers. Every BMR spring is computer tested....not a small sample, EVERY SPRING!! Eric from Install University stated that there may have been an error in the test procedure. He has removed the test data until he gets a chance to build a proper test fixture. You know that, but yet you continue to make FALSE statements. Why is that?

Sam, I am not going to get into another pissing match with you about springs. Please prove that you started using 550 pound front springs before BMR. Otherwise, keep the copy-cat comments to yourself.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

The springs are computer tested? Really, do tell me how a computer tests a spring, I'm dying to know.

As for the rate thing, it was something someone else posted. They rated the springs from you, GM and Moog as I recall. Maybe you missed it since you only show up around here when you can do you Pit-Bull act. You might be bigger than me, and have more guys floating around the forums than me (and just me). But that doesn't make you right.

I'm the one who made my springs, the ones that look and are the rates that they are (and have never changed) first. You sure did make springs first, and I guess they were so good you decided to completely redesign both the front and rear. You can't even use your own individual numbers. I had a guy call me last month concerned that his Strano Springs were BMR's because apparently the item code assembly numbers match mine too. FSA.001 and RSA.001. I solved that issue, I took all the markings off the latest batch.

My 550's are linear, your old springs were not (but amazingly the *ahem* "new ones" are). Further, your rears used to be a claimed 170. Why the change to 160 and the change in winding? Hmmmm? I mean the old ones were the "BEST", those were your words. And you are showing your ignorance.... your old springs were 550's in front, right? At least that was the claim. Yet they looked completely different than the current ones, or mine. So, when you say that I copied the 550 rate and that's why mine look like your current version, it's not only a lie but it's not correct either.

And to be fair LG had 550 linear fronts before I did. But they ran a hugely different rear spring, 180-220 as I recall where I run a 150 working rate. And since, unlike BMR, I sell my springs as a set and not just as a front only set nobody can claim I copied that set.

And lest you forget, I had the Betts Spring Company rep. in here. He wandered in one day all on his own. Part of his sales pitch was that he made your springs. He also took great pride in telling me how they'd be happy to reverse engineer a spring if I wanted them too. I passed for a number of reasons, the cheap price (and it was cheap) wasn't going to sway me.

nascarnate326

iTrader: (1)

good thread is good.

19xtreme99

iTrader: (2)

Haha... if I would have seen all this before I bought my Stranos, I would have never bought them regardless if they are/were superior or not.

Do you guys realize how you appear to the public right now? You look like a couple 5 year olds that are about to go tell the teacher on the other for saying a bad word. Grow up and act like professionals...

Your product/results can only speak for themselves for so long.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I'm sorry you feel that way.

LS1HIGHLIFE

iTrader: (8)

Wow, getting more info here than I expected. BMR and Strano have some good stuff to iron out.

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

Unfortunately, I doubt that BMR and Strano will ever iron-out our issues.

If you prefer some real spring tech rather than an internet fight, here is an old thread that explains everything that you ever wanted to know about spring manufacturing...and then some :
BMR Spring Manufacturing

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

If only the vendors would spend more time on developing more, new and better F-Body & 5th Gen Camaro parts, the community would be thankful. That said, these details are sure interesting...


One thing I would find interesting is how stock 4th Gen Camaro springs compare to stock 5th Gen Camaro springs in ride height and other comparisons from generation to generation... i.e. how do say Strano springs on a 4th Gen compare with the stock 5th Gen springs, etc.

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

Interesting topic. I have designed springs for the 4th gen F-body and 5th gen Camaro.

The most interesting difference is that the 5th gen springs use a higher spring rate on the rear. Most cars (including the 4th gen) have a higher spring rate on the front springs. BMR uses a 460 pound per inch spring rate on the rear springs and a 220 pound per inch spring rate on the front springs.

BMR 4th gen springs have a 550 pound spring rate on the front (compared to 220 for a 5th gen) and a 160 pound spring rate on the rear (compared to 460).

What else would you like to know?

SparkyJJO

iTrader: (11)

Why such a spring rate bias change on the 4th vs 5th gens?

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

It has to do with motion ratios.

On a 5th gen front, the strut mounts directly to the spindle. If the tire raises 1 inch, the strut compresses approx 1 inch.

On a 4th gen front, the shock is mounted to the lower A-arm (approx half way between the spindle and the A-arm pivot point). If the tire raises 1 inch, the shock only compresses approx 1/2 inch.

The spring rate of a 4th gen must be approx twice as much as a 4th gen to compensate for this difference in geometry.

The angle of the strut / shock affect motion ratio as well.

My explanation is oversimplified, but it demonstrates the effects of motion ratio on spring rate. The actual formula looks nasty, but it is fairly simple if you understand trigonometry.

85CamaroZ28

iTrader: (7)

I understand the trig about where the shock and spring mount on the front and rear and how they move but I have a different question.

We are working on stuff in Dynamic Modeling and Controls with springs and shocks and different spring rates and damping coefficients.

We use MATLAB and a program called SIMULINK to model the reactions multiple shocks and springs systems. How do you guys model the systems for cars when you're designing springs and/or shocks. I know its not a guess and check thing just curious if you could tell me. I know it'd be a lot to type so if you have time PM or something and I'll give you a call to discuss it more.

Basically I would like to come up with a model for the reaction of my car to a specific bump or turn and, while I understand most of what's going on, I know that it makes a big difference between a linear system and a "real world" scenario.

libertyforall1776

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for that 4th/5th comparison BMR -- very interesting. The other question I have is how do lowering spring affect ride quality on the 5th Gen vs. 4th Gen -- i.e. does the same ride height drop on a 5th end up being a less of an effect on ride quality than a 4th?


Herein lies a disappointment I have with Strano -- he does not like the 5th Gens for Autocross competition, so he doesn't focus on them or develop for them. At least BMR does. I can't talk for others, but I have a much stronger draw to the Camaros than Mustangs -- autocross optimal or not...

My guess is many people are or will be in the same boat soon, upgrading from Camaro generations, and they will want options... Of course if people buy a ZL1, they may not need much in the way of suspension improvements.

MurderedOut

iTrader: (21)

Ive had a set of stranos and loved them, but not with the konis yet. Just been battling myself on bmr vs strano. You both make a good product and are obviously passionate about it. But regardless on how each company came to make the product, understand that you each fit a different nitch in the market, and in the end are in the same pot, and in a lot of ways help each other generate business. However i do agree the constant callouts are over the line in lots of instances, and have made me reconsider my choices.

TO BMR rep:

Ive seen more than a few cars lowered on your newer design springs recently, and only getting about 3/4" to 1" drop. I really want to ensure i get at least a 1.25" drop, so this worries me naturally.

I know all cars stock springs are different, and have been through different situations changing the springs slightly. What kind of things do you guys do to ensure a close to advertised amount of drop? What are your tolerances? Any words of comfort? Your prices are hard to beat on the koni+free bmr spring deal.

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

I don't think Sam likes a 4th gen for autocross either. He has been racing a Mustang in SCCA for years, even though his class allows a 4th gen.

I'll agree with Sam that a 5th gen is not a good car for autocrossing. Too big, too heavy, and the yaw (rotational inertia) is too high because too much weight is located towards the front and rear bumpers.

BMR is the only suspension company that has a complete product line for both the 4th gen and 5th gen Camaros. We already offer lowering springs, sway bars, suspension components, chassis components, and bushings for the 5th gen Camaro. And we still have time to develop new products (like the AA020) and improve our existing products (like the XSB001) for the 4th gen.

BMR Suspension

iTrader: (6)

Every spring is tested by a CNC machine during the Cold Set process. The spring is compressed solid by a CNC tester and then slowly released. During this release, the machine is measuring spring forces and calculating spring rates to guarantee that the spring is within specs. It's automatic and computerized, so every spring can be tested easily.

BMR receives a data report showing the measurements for each an every spring. We review and approve that report before the springs are allowed to be shipped from the spring manufacturer.

Timing the bushings (clocking the bushings) is very important with a 4th gen. If they are not timed correctly during installation, you may not see the full drop.

I can assure you that the BMR springs are very, very consistent. If you are seeing variability in the drop distance, it is probably due to installation procedure rather than spring variability. I know that it is convenient to blame the install procedure rather than the springs, but the spring manufacturing process is very sophisticated. Every spring is very close to being identical. It is highly unlikely that there is a spring issue. On the other hand, each set of springs is installed by a different person....so the chance of variation from installation is much higher.

SparkyJJO

iTrader: (11)

Not to mention that twist on the bushings can lead to premature bushing failure as it twists it to heck... You want the suspension loaded before tightening down the bolts that hold the bushings, IIRC. That puts the bushing in its most neutral position when the car is in its neutral resting position.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I did it on both my Camaro when I replaced its shocks, and that's how I did it on my Trailblazer when I replaced its shocks.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

I sell parts for the 5th gen.. I'm just so busy with 4th gens and Mustangs that I don't have lots of time to just add things to the site. This is the downside to being small. I'm sorry that you are disappointed. But here's the real rub I have with that thinking. I'm not so cocky to think I know what to "whip-up" for that car. What I do for the 3rd and 4th gens is specialized knowledge I found by competition.... I think that's preferrable to just making parts to put my name on.