RESULTS: BMR vs Strano ride height!
05-11-2013, 06:32 PM
#202
Hey everyone! Just a quick rundown/update. Only have a few minutes of free time so trying to keep this short and I will add on later. BTW, my inbox has blown up and I apologize for not replying back to everyone yet, but I will! (been crazy busy)
So I shot Sam another email and gave him a call. He called back but I was tied up at work and was unable to pick up or call him back. Sam, if you are reading this, I will call you as soon as I can.
Anyways, in Sam's email he said that he did measure his springs and that they are 12" tall. Now I am not sure if this is true or not since he did not post a picture and that I told him how tall mine was before he measured. Not saying he is lying and claiming 12" just to make it look like its not a spring issue, I just don't understand how others are 11 3/4" then.
Since I'm short on time here is the email response. I agree, lets please stop the Sponsor bashing and focus more on quantitative and qualitative facts to try and solve this. (just trying to keep the thread open)
So I shot Sam another email and gave him a call. He called back but I was tied up at work and was unable to pick up or call him back. Sam, if you are reading this, I will call you as soon as I can.
Anyways, in Sam's email he said that he did measure his springs and that they are 12" tall. Now I am not sure if this is true or not since he did not post a picture and that I told him how tall mine was before he measured. Not saying he is lying and claiming 12" just to make it look like its not a spring issue, I just don't understand how others are 11 3/4" then.
Since I'm short on time here is the email response. I agree, lets please stop the Sponsor bashing and focus more on quantitative and qualitative facts to try and solve this. (just trying to keep the thread open)
Originally Posted by My Email
Hi Sam,
Sorry I missed your call yesterday, tied up at work. I will have very limited access to my phone for a while, so I am responding back via email.
I did not have before measurements however it is blatantly in the pics that front did not budge. (1/8” at max) All of this has been addressed in the original thread here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...de-height.html
I installing and re-installing your springs twice and the car still did not budge. I had also put 2000 plus miles on them, plenty of time for them to “settle in.” Again, I do not have any weight reduction and the end links were far from over tightened. Now you state that you cannot guarantee ride height. Not being able to guarantee final ride height is understandable, as this is out of your control. Cars start at different height and due to this, the ~1.2 inch drop will not make every car sit at the same “final” height but it should at least lower the car from its starting point. However, you should be able to control the drop of your spring, no matter how high the car started out. Meaning, whether a car starts at 27.5” or 28” high, when they add your springs the car should lower somewhere close to the approximate drop. (~1.2” w/ your springs) If not, then you are truly stating that you cannot guarantee the quality control of your product. (each spring being cut at an equal height)
After being told numerous times that your springs are not the issue, after ruling out all other possibilities besides the springs themselves, and after not allowing me to swap the front springs I took it upon myself to rule out the springs. I bought BMR springs because of the spring rates being very close and both being an advertised ~ 1.2” drop. Long story short, the BMR springs are significantly shorter than yours (my strano’s 12 3/16”) and they ended up lowering my car just a tad short of 1”. You said in your voicemail that your springs should be 12” tall (free standing/uncompressed) however others who have measured their front Strano’s are just shy of 11 3/4 tall, which is where the BMR’s ended up measuring out to. Full comparison is in my follow up thread here: (w/ pics and measurements) https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...de-height.html
This clearly illustrates that your springs were the issue and the reason my car did not budge in ride height. This is what I would clearly call a “defective” spring and because of that I would like a refund for those springs. I don’t mind returning them either. Lastly, I have a few questions.
1. - If your springs are suppose to be 12” free standing, why are others cut a ¼” shorter?
2. - Can you please send a picture of you measuring the front springs at 12”?
3. - In your voicemail you stated that measuring from the ground to the center of the fender is not an accurate way to measure ride height because the fenders are not cut the same. I am confused by that, please explain.
Please do not ignore this email.
Thanks,- Mike
Sorry I missed your call yesterday, tied up at work. I will have very limited access to my phone for a while, so I am responding back via email.
I did not have before measurements however it is blatantly in the pics that front did not budge. (1/8” at max) All of this has been addressed in the original thread here: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...de-height.html
I installing and re-installing your springs twice and the car still did not budge. I had also put 2000 plus miles on them, plenty of time for them to “settle in.” Again, I do not have any weight reduction and the end links were far from over tightened. Now you state that you cannot guarantee ride height. Not being able to guarantee final ride height is understandable, as this is out of your control. Cars start at different height and due to this, the ~1.2 inch drop will not make every car sit at the same “final” height but it should at least lower the car from its starting point. However, you should be able to control the drop of your spring, no matter how high the car started out. Meaning, whether a car starts at 27.5” or 28” high, when they add your springs the car should lower somewhere close to the approximate drop. (~1.2” w/ your springs) If not, then you are truly stating that you cannot guarantee the quality control of your product. (each spring being cut at an equal height)
After being told numerous times that your springs are not the issue, after ruling out all other possibilities besides the springs themselves, and after not allowing me to swap the front springs I took it upon myself to rule out the springs. I bought BMR springs because of the spring rates being very close and both being an advertised ~ 1.2” drop. Long story short, the BMR springs are significantly shorter than yours (my strano’s 12 3/16”) and they ended up lowering my car just a tad short of 1”. You said in your voicemail that your springs should be 12” tall (free standing/uncompressed) however others who have measured their front Strano’s are just shy of 11 3/4 tall, which is where the BMR’s ended up measuring out to. Full comparison is in my follow up thread here: (w/ pics and measurements) https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...de-height.html
This clearly illustrates that your springs were the issue and the reason my car did not budge in ride height. This is what I would clearly call a “defective” spring and because of that I would like a refund for those springs. I don’t mind returning them either. Lastly, I have a few questions.
1. - If your springs are suppose to be 12” free standing, why are others cut a ¼” shorter?
2. - Can you please send a picture of you measuring the front springs at 12”?
3. - In your voicemail you stated that measuring from the ground to the center of the fender is not an accurate way to measure ride height because the fenders are not cut the same. I am confused by that, please explain.
Please do not ignore this email.
Thanks,- Mike
Originally Posted by Sam's response
No guarantees are made on ride height, never have, never will. Another man who just got his springs and Bilstein's on sent me a note yesterday, which a picture and is very pleased with how the car drives and looks. There is no accounting for personal taste, or the fact that so many cars start as so many different ride heights.
What springs did your car start with, and what were the starting measurements? I know you would think that all cars would sit the same as a final drop, but that is 100% not the case. Further, you claim the BMR springs lowered you short of 1", and they claim a drop of 1.25 as I recall. I measured a spring I have in my building. I laid a yardstick and it's 12", from the very end of each pigtail. I don't know how others measured theirs. The numbers you post are certainly not stock height numbers.
The springs are all CNC wound by Hypercoil (for the last 3 years), which is not a fly by night company.
I offered to get you a different set of springs at cost such as H&R or Eibach, etc. and you chose to buy a set of BMR's outright. I would be willing to accept the springs back minus shipping and restocking fee, which I would not normally do since I cannot resell them as new having been on a car. I cannot issue a full refund because there is no guarantee on drop. If you purchased the springs based 100% on the number, then you should ask yourself why the BMR's are not the full drop they claim either (which seems ok to you).
The fender openings are not cut equally on the car. The way to measure ride height is actually from the ground to the pinch welds. Opposite example are C6 Corvettes, their rear fender openings are much bigger and even when sitting tail down when measured at the frame tie downs, they look like they are nose down because of that larger rear opening. The front opening on an F-body is larger than the rear, so the opposite often happens. Further, I've had two other complaints of "too little" front drop. One had before/after measurements, swore that it was sitting nose high compared to before. Turns out when he and both reviewed his measurements my springs actually sat 1/8" lower in front than the previous set of lowering springs he had (blue Hypercoils), but because we dropped the rear more the visual changed and he was convinced that the nose didn't drop. It did, just not as much as the rear. The other person I made a switch for to H&R's and he got a little more front drop, but still not as much as the approximate advertised drop they show.
Further, I don't particular appreciate the fact you think I'm ignoring you when I called you yesterday. You didn't pick up the phone, and I'm pretty busy.
What springs did your car start with, and what were the starting measurements? I know you would think that all cars would sit the same as a final drop, but that is 100% not the case. Further, you claim the BMR springs lowered you short of 1", and they claim a drop of 1.25 as I recall. I measured a spring I have in my building. I laid a yardstick and it's 12", from the very end of each pigtail. I don't know how others measured theirs. The numbers you post are certainly not stock height numbers.
The springs are all CNC wound by Hypercoil (for the last 3 years), which is not a fly by night company.
I offered to get you a different set of springs at cost such as H&R or Eibach, etc. and you chose to buy a set of BMR's outright. I would be willing to accept the springs back minus shipping and restocking fee, which I would not normally do since I cannot resell them as new having been on a car. I cannot issue a full refund because there is no guarantee on drop. If you purchased the springs based 100% on the number, then you should ask yourself why the BMR's are not the full drop they claim either (which seems ok to you).
The fender openings are not cut equally on the car. The way to measure ride height is actually from the ground to the pinch welds. Opposite example are C6 Corvettes, their rear fender openings are much bigger and even when sitting tail down when measured at the frame tie downs, they look like they are nose down because of that larger rear opening. The front opening on an F-body is larger than the rear, so the opposite often happens. Further, I've had two other complaints of "too little" front drop. One had before/after measurements, swore that it was sitting nose high compared to before. Turns out when he and both reviewed his measurements my springs actually sat 1/8" lower in front than the previous set of lowering springs he had (blue Hypercoils), but because we dropped the rear more the visual changed and he was convinced that the nose didn't drop. It did, just not as much as the rear. The other person I made a switch for to H&R's and he got a little more front drop, but still not as much as the approximate advertised drop they show.
Further, I don't particular appreciate the fact you think I'm ignoring you when I called you yesterday. You didn't pick up the phone, and I'm pretty busy.
05-11-2013, 10:41 PM
#204
Thank GOD someone finally said this!!
I mean it doesn't matter what it is... one thing is for you sure, your here to bash Strano.
You'd think BMR paid you a salary for gods sake. Just stay out of the threads if all you have to contribute is continually stirring the pot with this Strano/BMR conspiracy theories **** and trash talking.
I don't run either products so I'm not sticking up for no one and have no agenda here.
Edit: I received this shortly after I posted this:
Originally Posted by chaman
No. BMR does not pay me ****. You are right Im bashing the ******* and having fun with it, karma is a bitch. I was one of the guys who this idiot attack and pushed around in the forums when I questioned him about his insistence on using Konis and his springs. Finally he is getting what he deserves. Loads of ****.
I suggest then to not want to read my posts about this fat bigot, because I will not post in this thread no more, but I assure you that in future related threads I will be around. Sorry if I irritated you.
I suggest then to not want to read my posts about this fat bigot, because I will not post in this thread no more, but I assure you that in future related threads I will be around. Sorry if I irritated you.
I think this proves how childish Chaman really is and that it is nothing more than a pursuit born out of boredom and hate.
***I recognize that some make think it is in poor taste to share a PM with the public. In that respect I kind of regret it, but if it lets people see Chaman's bullshit for what it is... (bullshit) then I don't feel that bad about it. I am just sick of the train wreck that ensues in every thread like this for what is purely a personal vendetta.***
Last edited by My6speedZ; 06-15-2013 at 04:44 AM.
05-11-2013, 11:17 PM
#206
I don't have anything in this either but am wondering. If this were a quality/manufacturing issue, I'd expect one spring to be right and one wrong. It takes approximately 30 pcs of anything manufactured to gather enough data to prove whether a process is in control or not. In any type of process there are outliers and the chance of getting two equal outliers is pretty small. If the process were out of control I'd expect many ride height failures, not just one. And knowing what I know from running Hypercoils unrelated to Strano (in another form of Motorsport), they're pretty awesome.
Or something like that.
Or something like that.
05-12-2013, 01:10 PM
#207
Launching!
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From a technical standpoint, it was interesting to see someone mention front wheel cutouts being bigger. I've thought for some time that the front wheel cutouts were bigger, but I've never seen or heard it mentioned before. Even if it is true, I would still want the wheel gap to be even, at least, front and back. I'm not trying to lend justification to one side of the argument or the other, I just thought it interesting.
05-13-2013, 08:00 AM
#209
What you have posted just does not make sense. The spring is taller. No settling time will make it shorter, basic high school physics. The guy did not stood up to help the OP and has said nothing about what happened. The guy has a quality control issue but he just chooses to deny it and attack his customer. You are the prototype who gets all starry eyed and impressed when he starts with all his yada-yada. Good for you. If things turn out as I suspect hurry up and but all his products, these type of customer service can only go so far. Funny how you just repeat everything he says instead of thinking....a little.
I use Sams parts for what they were designed for. Get your *** on track with me and watch me leave you in a different zip code. Then talk to me about starry eyed.
Again, a springs height depends on the weight sitting on it, doesn't take a "thinker" to figure that out.
If a car is every wrecked in it's life this will also effect ride height if not repaired correctly.
EVERY one of these cars are different......production tolerances are the cause of this.
Because Sam doesn't kiss your(or anyone else's) *** is your problem, plain and simple. If you don't want to do business with him then don't, but whining about you being butt hurt in a Strano thread because Sam is not an *** kisser is pretty immature.
05-13-2013, 08:34 AM
#210
I use Sams parts for what they were designed for. Get your *** on track with me and watch me leave you in a different zip code. Then talk to me about starry eyed.
Again, a springs height depends on the weight sitting on it, doesn't take a "thinker" to figure that out.
If a car is every wrecked in it's life this will also effect ride height if not repaired correctly.
EVERY one of these cars are different......production tolerances are the cause of this.
Because Sam doesn't kiss your(or anyone else's) *** is your problem, plain and simple. If you don't want to do business with him then don't, but whining about you being butt hurt in a Strano thread because Sam is not an *** kisser is pretty immature.
Again, a springs height depends on the weight sitting on it, doesn't take a "thinker" to figure that out.
If a car is every wrecked in it's life this will also effect ride height if not repaired correctly.
EVERY one of these cars are different......production tolerances are the cause of this.
Because Sam doesn't kiss your(or anyone else's) *** is your problem, plain and simple. If you don't want to do business with him then don't, but whining about you being butt hurt in a Strano thread because Sam is not an *** kisser is pretty immature.
05-13-2013, 09:52 AM
#211
TECH Addict
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I have talked to Sam plenty of times on the phone and he has helped me with my suspension mods for my car. He talked me out of LCA brackets because it only helps for straight line (not so much daily driving). He helped me with the install of his Konis and Stranos. Bought stainless lines from him, and I will be getting his sway bars.
Hope this issue gets resolved and people who are pointing their pitchforks at Sam get silenced.
Hope this issue gets resolved and people who are pointing their pitchforks at Sam get silenced.
Last edited by ThoR294; 05-13-2013 at 02:13 PM.
05-21-2013, 11:29 AM
#212
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Comparing relaxed spring length between two brands of spring is not realistic, unless you are absolutely certain that the spring rates are identical. Anyone really verified this? As far as long term use installed spring height, Sams springs typically dont sag. This is a product of good material and heat treatment.
As far as the amount of drop in installed height, I have to assume that is based on the car starting out with a stock spring that has no sag. If your stock springs have already sagged 1.2 inches from new, of course Sams springs cant be expected to magically drop it another 1.2 inches. As far as installing BMR springs and getting additional drop, well, add up the tolerances. Free length, spring rate, location of spring tail relative to the control arm, etc. I think you will find its really easy to have quite a variation in ride height.
Yes, I have Sams springs, sitting in the garage waiting to go in. Yes, I have bought from BMR. Happy with both products. What is annoying is that this entire 11 pages of posting is dominated by immature whining and finger pointing by quite a few. Im too old for this crap.
And whoever said this is simple physics needs a refresher on machine design and material properties. Maybe something on the realities of machining tolerances. There, Ive vented......
As far as the amount of drop in installed height, I have to assume that is based on the car starting out with a stock spring that has no sag. If your stock springs have already sagged 1.2 inches from new, of course Sams springs cant be expected to magically drop it another 1.2 inches. As far as installing BMR springs and getting additional drop, well, add up the tolerances. Free length, spring rate, location of spring tail relative to the control arm, etc. I think you will find its really easy to have quite a variation in ride height.
Yes, I have Sams springs, sitting in the garage waiting to go in. Yes, I have bought from BMR. Happy with both products. What is annoying is that this entire 11 pages of posting is dominated by immature whining and finger pointing by quite a few. Im too old for this crap.
And whoever said this is simple physics needs a refresher on machine design and material properties. Maybe something on the realities of machining tolerances. There, Ive vented......
05-23-2013, 06:42 PM
#214
Staging Lane
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I have no stake in this or any history or knowledge of previous arguments. I am just a customer looking for springs, shocks, and adj. panhard for my new SS.
I have seen some nice stances with with Strano springs. Lately, the pictures I have seen have shown the front end to sit up high with the Stranos. The only conclusion I can make is the latest batch order from Vogtland did not come out the same. Sam's response should have been to future and current customers, assuring them he will get to the root of this (maybe measure older springs vs. newer springs). Maybe compare different orders from Vogtland.
I am looking for a nice level drop. I can't chance my front end will be sitting up high. Customer service is paramount too. JMO.
I have seen some nice stances with with Strano springs. Lately, the pictures I have seen have shown the front end to sit up high with the Stranos. The only conclusion I can make is the latest batch order from Vogtland did not come out the same. Sam's response should have been to future and current customers, assuring them he will get to the root of this (maybe measure older springs vs. newer springs). Maybe compare different orders from Vogtland.
I am looking for a nice level drop. I can't chance my front end will be sitting up high. Customer service is paramount too. JMO.
06-05-2013, 05:02 PM
#215
TECH Resident
I have BMR springs, and very pleased! I also wanted to say when I called Sam a few moons ago he was very nice and helpful. The only reason I didn't buy from him was the price and because I was broke lol also because BMR let me put them on Layaway lol
I think both BMR and Sam Strano have a lot of amazing products, I wish them both well!!!!!!!
I think both BMR and Sam Strano have a lot of amazing products, I wish them both well!!!!!!!
06-06-2013, 05:35 PM
#217
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Well **** I just measured my strano's out of the box brand new because this got me curious.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.
06-06-2013, 05:39 PM
#218
I just measured my strano's out of the box brand new because this got me curious.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.
06-06-2013, 05:53 PM
#219
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Ok there you go. Those should be the pics on photobucket, still wondering about how to use it, hopefully they show up.
Last edited by Robbie Wilson; 06-06-2013 at 06:01 PM.
06-06-2013, 06:46 PM
#220
I just measured my strano's out of the box brand new because this got me curious.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.
And yep. They measure exactly at 12inch. WTF. Aren't they supposed to be 11 3/4?
I took pics but ls1tech wont let me upload them for some reason, it says server error.
But I am actually gonna be really pissed if they don't lower the car at all.