Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Vernon, I'm not familiar with your products so I certainly have no reason to doubt what you say. I also don't take issue with the kind of fitment problems you referenced here. IMO, its going above and beyond on your part to try and accommodate the fitment of the various aftermarket parts you noted (e.g. turbo kits, headers, etc). Its great if you can do it and certainly a selling point, but my gripe is with the SAFETY of the parts. If I bought a brand X suspension widget and it didn't fit properly due to my aftermarket 9" rear mounting, I'd either modify it to work or I'd try something different. I'd hope that my upfront research would prevent such a problem, but its inevitable when you're dealing with aftermarket stuff.

No, my problem would be with the suspension widget that wasn't properly tested and/or designed before it was released for public consumption. This is regardless of price. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I guaran-damn-tee you that I wouldn't be looking to save a few bucks (or a few hundred bucks) on an inferior design. Hell no! Those dollars saved "ain't" gonna reattach my arm after an accident or save the family out for a Sunday drive that I hit when I lost control after my front wheel went rolling off the car. No thanks.

John95Z28

It seemed like there was a group of people who jumped to BMR's defense by implying that the aftermarket industry couldn't afford either thorough engineering or adequate product testing. Therefore, if an aftermarket suspension widget broke, we (the driving public) should cut them some slack and not complain about it.

Both Brett's post and Vernon's have led me to think that their companies are doing their best to design, test, and build good products. That, and good customer service, are about all anybody can ask of a company. My point is that we shouldn't let them, or any company, get away with delivering anything short of that standard.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Just to add a little bit of info. Every company that makes a product has a 800 complaint line for customer complaints. It is then part of the companies responsiblilty to investigate the problem and see if something needs to be changed for future designs.

This sounds like what has happened here with BMR and ProFab. Unfortunately they don't have the ability to spend 1000s of hours doing product testing and must rely on customer feedback to make the product better. With that said, its the responsibility of the manufacturer to warranty an item if it is truly either a design flaw or build flaw that causes a failuer, no questions asked.

I have lots of BMR stuff on my car now for well over 30k miles and I don't a single complaint.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Okay, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here nor am I trying to negatively impact a sponsor or vendor. I wish ALL companies and persons that we bought from produced top notch products that never broke and were a good bang-for-the-buck. That would be a boon for us enthusiasts. BTW, I have on my car BMR relo. brackets and STB. Both are nicely built and have held up to a bunch of abuse.

With that said though, I'm going to suggest that it doesn't take "1000s of hours of product testing" to make a design viable. IMO, if you're gonna advertise it as acceptable for street duty then you should at least test it in SEVERE street duty. I mean don't drive it down the freeway a few times and declare it a winner if nothing fell off or just proclaim it worthy just because it looks "beefy". Instead, beat the **** out of the setup on a test car and see what happens. If it breaks then improve the design. This doesn't cost much beyond a loaner car, a little bit of time, and some bad roads. Sure, its not an elegant approach, but at least its a way to shake out the problems. Besides it adds documentation that you have indeed tested the product if (Heaven forbid) a lawyer should be knocking at the door some afternoon.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Fulton ... I get it, Trackbird gets it and many others get it.
However, others prefer to pay to be a vendor's R&D department.

Like Brett stated,

I found myself in this role. I was a test bed for new and untested, untried product. It scared the hell out of me.

Now, an important point Brett did forget was that I paid for everything. BMR didn't replace anything for free. I bought those ends he described for $25 each. I mean, taking free parts and then warning others about what happened would be hypocritical, right.

For the record ... I still have a BMR STB on the car (I had to alter the pads to sit flush and not cover the oil filler cap) and BMR boxed SFCs (had to rework the rear mount to fit the LCA mount).

I said this in response to Brett's post ...

and I said this early on ...

And I still mean it ...

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

Mitch, you're right. I always appreciate your insight as I appreciate that of the other real "racers" here, but I also understand that there are folks who will look beyond the numbers to see what they want to see. My Dad used to say, "there are liars, damn liars, and statisticians". I'm far from a statistician or a suspension/chassis expert (not even close) , but I do enjoy the topic and I do understand good engineering practice, so I'm appalled to see the average consumer being used as a test mule. I know it happens all the time - especially with powertrain stuff. I would just hope that the consumer is made aware of it. If you're willing to agree to testing the latest and greatest PHR, then that's wonderful. If it breaks you shouldn't complain, after all you agreed to be the tester. However, if you were unaware then you SHOULD complain and you shouldn't be paying for the parts.

I don't normally get all wound up about this kind of thing nor do I complain much - after all its just a website, right? However, in this case I see a trend. Its a trend that further passes the burden to the consumer and I hate that. If I were to start building parts out of my garage I would GD well perfect my welding skills and my design before I sold it for money. That's all

Vernon House

To my knowledge we have had not one of our K members Break. There has been customers who bent them from big wheel stands ( not just one more like 12-15 wheel stands), hit the wall , and 1 hit the back of a tractor trailor. I can't say we have never had one bend but we took care of them. Those things are out of anyones control . I feel when a driver hits the wall or wrecks his car he has more problems than to worry about buying more suspension parts. Anyone who trusts me to make them a good part and supports us is a freind of mine. If your friend wrecked you would help right? This is one way I can help . There has been other builders tell me I will go broke doing this. I don't care. I would rather be broke. I had nothing when I started Pro Fab . If my values don't make it in the racing world, then I guess it was not ment to be. This is just how I feel take it or leave it. I aslo would like to address the Part failure that one person brought to our attention parts do fail there is no denying that. we buy and I am sure other companies do the same. we buy tubing from all around the world. It is A fact that tubing manufactures have made bad batches of steel . We sent back 4000 feet of tubing 3 months ago. The problem was the tubing would split after welding. We found this out at the test lab . not all parts make it to you the buyer. I just want you all to know builders try to make you safe parts I put our parts on my daily driver and my kids ride to work with me every day. I feel we make a safe part. If Not I would not use this on my own car and put my kids lives on the line. thanks for your time Vernon

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I appreciate your efforts, diligence and attention to detail, Vernon. I hope you understand my (our) point of view as well.

In my specific situation, as long as everything was together and working as it should, I too was happy. It was only after it broke (again) and the collateral damage it caused after losing control as a result of the breakage, that I realized that I was a mule. I was the test bed. And I posted my experience.

In hind sight, I wish I had worded it little differently. I was rather shook up and pissed off at the time. I learned something from that, as well.

I don't believe for an instant that BMR willingly sold me a part that they thought was defective. That isn't the point of my ire nor do I think it's Fulton's.

Good luck with future development at Pro-Fab. Just keep in mind that sometimes, these parts are "tested" under extreme conditions and there are real people behind the wheel at the time.

I am getting tired of constantly having to justify my decisions, simply because I wanted to share my experience to keep others from making the same mistakes I did and to MAKE fabricators keep their standards high. It appears that shear numbers can over power honest feedback.

So, I'm done. You guys can buy your soft springs, over-priced shocks and cheap suspension parts. But be forwarned ... posting up your results can be ulcerating ...