damon_Z

Just like many others on this message board, I bought my car to drive it everyday and, occasionally, take it to the dragstrip for some decent quarter mile times. Now, I want to modify my suspension as cost-effectively as possible. After researching for several days on this message board, here are the warnings that I've been able to gather and will follow:

- Don't lower the car! Lowering might force me to buy an adjustable panhard rod to recenter the rear end and adjustable lower control arm brackets to regain the lost factory control arm angle. An adjustable panhard rod and adjustable lower control arm brackets are bad. (See reasons below.) And my weight transfer, with just the lowering springs, will suffer when launching.

- Don't buy any suspension part with polyurethane! Who in the hell wants binding? It's better to have the peace of mind knowing that you can use 100% of your suspension. Who in the hell wants coldflow (whatever that is)? And who in the hell wants to lube their bushings? Life is hard enough...

- Don't buy any suspension part with rod-ends! (This includes an adjustable panhard rod and adjustable lower control arms.) It doesn't matter if it has the $30+ rod ends. It doesn't matter if the rod ends are teflon-lined so they stay quiet for a long time (but will get noisier over time). What DOES matter is that they don't last that long! How long do they last? 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 miles (if you're lucky)? And, what's that? I have to use graphite to properly maintain them? **** you. And then I have to pay somebody $85 an hour to remove the old ones and put the new ones on? Not to mention, again, that each rod end is $30+? **** you again. And there's no way I'm gonna spend my whole day doing it myself and doing it wrong. Remember, life is hard enough.

- Don't buy adjustable control arm brackets! I know it's tempting--.10 or better reduction in 60 foot times for unlowered cars. It's great for making the car move forward, but that's all. I don't want to take any chances in getting brake hop or compromising my car's handling in any way. Keeping the control arms level is the only proper way to go.

- Don't buy adjustable shocks! Life is hard enough. Why would I waste my time and energy adjusting shocks with a spanner wrench when all I want to do is get in the car and drive?! I'm not gonna autocross the car or drive like a showy punk-*** bitch and make high-speed turns on the street!

- Only buy shocks that are valved for your springs! I can't just buy ANY spring and shock combo and think that they'll work in harmony or even think that I can get a comfortable ride with them AND still handle good. That would be as bad as thinking that life was only created by accident!

So, after keeping those warnings in mind and knowing what I want to do with the car, here are the parts that I came up with along with their prices (not including shipping). Keep in mind that I'm paying a professional f-body shop to install them. (Remember, life is hard and you also want to minimize the amount of labor time involved.)

- SLP 1LE panhard rod: $26.95 from lmperformance.com;
- GM 1LE rear control arms: $134.64 from Dal Slabaugh ($67.32 per control arm);
- Strano revalved Bilsteins: $500.

The parts above should last for MANY miles and will only benefit the car WITHOUT any side-effects and extra maintenance. That means that the 1LE bushings won't bind AND won't squeak or clunk AND won't need to be lubed with grease or graphite. And the Bilstein shocks will be properly valved for the factory springs. (So, I could probably handle well AND get even a BETTER comfortable factory ride!) I could also get bigger front swaybars, but again, I won't be autocrossing.

So, in the end, I'll simply be able to get in my car and drive it with nothing to worry about. It's great to keep life simple.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I have no LCA relocation brackets on this car (though it does have an adjustable PHB):




Poly can bind the suspension. A poly/rubber combo works well, or a Poly/rod end combo works rather well also.

Cold flow is the deformation of the bushings from the suspension trying to use its normal range of motion. The poly resists this until it finally starts to wear out and get slop in it (think of hitting a lead block with a hammer, it will deform, but not return to its original shape....that's similar to what poly does once it starts to deform).

Good quality rod ends on a PHB make virtually no noise. Most people who get in my car have no idea that the PHB has rod ends on it. LCA's can be a different story. I think you'll be more than happy with a (good quality) rod/rod PHB.

They really aren't needed for many lowered cars (as stated, I'm not running them and have never wanted to). They can potentially contribute to brake hop, but on street tires, it's not common to get brake hop anyway.

Shocks are not adjusted with "spanners". That's usually used for an adjustable spring perch on a coil over setup. Adjustable shocks and a coilover setup are not the same thing. You can have one, the other, or both. Coil overs let you adjust your ride height. Adjustable shocks let you adjust your damping characteristics. To adjust shocks, you need things like a flat blade screwdriver, a 2.5mm allen wrench and the Koni "****" (this applies to Koni's only, others may be different and most of them just use *****). Adjustable shocks are not rocket science. You can generally get decent results with just a bit of experimenting (or ask someone and you can get guidance from a similar setup).... I know it's a lot of work......

It is recommended that you buy shocks that are designed for the spring rates you are going to use. The results will be tons better. Just because you can physically install a "giant" cam in your motor does not mean it is what you need for a daily driver. Sure, you can make it run, but it may not run well on the bottom end, or may be very high strung, etc. It's just an effort to match parts, just like you'd do for any other part of the car (engine, etc).

I'd do the sway bars, even on a street car..... Otherwise, I think your setup fits your needs perfectly. I'm glad we could help.

damon_Z

Thanks for the reply and extra info, trackbird. It was exactly what I was waiting for. Even if it's the only reply this post gets, it's probably the only reply that'll really matter.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

I really would consider a rod/rod PHB. With good quality ends, you'll not notice that it's there. The 1LE LCA's are not a bad choice, but at that price, I might consider looking for a set of stiffer bushings for the stock ones (or replacing one end with poly and leaving the stock bushing in the other). It may be much cheaper.

WS6WRX

iTrader: (1)

I would just get a set of MOOG solid rubber bushings for the LCA's. The 1LE arms themselves really aren't much different if any. Like Trackbird said, I'd look at the sway bars for an improvement even in just a daily driver.

JimMueller

iTrader: (9)

I'd skip the panhard unless you can't center the rear-end after other suspension mods. While I do believe you can find quality products which use of rod-ends, I don't see the sense in buying something you don't need.

Adjustable components are only for those who know they'll take the time to get it right. Whether it is suspension, tuning, etc. I'm tired of both, by the way

What's different on the 1LE arms vs. stock? If it's just the bushing, then I'd second the MOOG rubber bushings as well. Just have to weigh the cost of buying & replacing the bushings vs. buying a set already complete. I've read of good results using a stiff (rod-end or poly) on the chassis side of the LCA, and a rubber bushing on the axle side. But if you basically want to install it and forget about it (which I totally respect) then I'd stick with rubber bushings on the LCA's.

The aftermarket sway bars can make spirited drving more fun, but most come with poly endlink bushings and chassis mount bushings. Depending upon your choice of lubricant, you will at some point need to re-lube the chassis bushings. But the stock endlink bushings and front LCA bushings take a beating also, so you could just add the poly chassis bushings to the inspection/maintenance plan.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

The rod ended PHB will positively locate the rear axle. Worst case, set it to stock length (I ship mine that way) and install it. At which time, you have the benefit of the stiffer PHB and no bushing deflection. You can choose to forget that it's adjustable if you'd like.

Poly sway bar bushings are not the labor intensive thing that most think they are. The car shown in the above pictures has sway bars that have been on it for 3 years and a year (front/rear) and I've never relubed the bushings and they are virtually silent (and I just had the front bar disconnected the other day and could easily move it by hand in the frame bushings, all is well and moving freely). Should you lube them? Yea. Have I? Not so far. (Do as I say, not as I do....).

And, I hate to admit, there are stock LCA's under the car in both of those pictures. I had Rod/Rod LCA's on it and removed them when I was planning to sell the car a while back and just never built and installed another set. They are stock, right down to the rubber bushings. And, as you can see, I autocross the car regularly. Is it ideal? Probably not, does it work? Absolutely (and the car is a frequent winner in my local area, though my co driver has beaten me a few times here lately...in my own car, so it still won.).

No black magic, but the car is fast and it does handle well.

No Juice

iTrader: (11)

Is that a cone under the front of the car in the second pic?

No wonder you win a lot when you cut the corners

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

That is, in fact, a cone. I hit it, just to watch it die (and eventually melt to my exhaust....it still smells like molten plastic when I accelerate briskly). I really didnt' so much cut that corner as I blew right through that cone. I was going a bit fast to make the corner and I decided to just go a bit wide and hit it (crap happens, expecially when you are a cone). Unfortunately, each cone is a 2 second penalty. Hitting one is rarely the fast way (once you get the penalty for it). Oh well, I'm sure it won't be the only one I hit.....(isn't that why they are there? )

damon_Z

Thanks for the suggestion, but for me, it's really not about not noticing it or how much performance it'll give, but it's about thinking how long those rod end bushings will last, how I'll have to maintain them, and how much I'll pay (for parts and labor) to get them replaced in only a relatively short period of time.

Yeah, I thought about getting just the rear control arm bushings replaced with the 1LE bushings since Sam Strano sells them for $52 per set(?), but I've read somewhere that it's a very labor-intensive job to replace the factory control arm bushings. I'm also paying a professional f-body shop that charges $85 an hour so I thought that it was probably cheaper just getting brand-new factory 1LE rear control arms. Also, my passenger rear control arm became slightly bent after I tried lifting the car on it () so I thought that it was better to replace it anyway.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

The rod ends on a PHB don't see the loading and wear that the LCA's do. Many people never replace the rod ends on a PHB (I once had a prototype PHB with "junk" non lined rod ends, they'd rattle when you shook them in your hand, on my car. It wasn't that loud when on the car. You'd hear it sometimes, but only on patched pavement that was really choppy. The good ends will probably last forever and not make a sound). But, do what works best for you.

damon_Z

Well, you've really enlightened me and changed my whole way of thinking about that part. When my 1LE panhard rod bushings wear out, I'll definitely buy a chrome moly, adjustable panhard rod with the spherical bushings. I know Spohn sells them for $200.

WS6WRX

iTrader: (1)

Well since one is bent it may be best to just replace them. It's actually very easy to replace those bushings. As for the panhard rod, I would look toward Unbalanced Engineering for that part.

damon_Z

1LE rear control arms are replacing my factory control arms including the bent one. It's good to know that it's easy to replace those control arm bushings. When the 1LE bushings eventually wear out, I can just buy a new set(?) from Sam Strano for $52 and get an installer to easily (and hopefully, cheaply) replace the old ones. When the 1LE panhard rod bushings wear out, I'll probably go with trackbird's or Spohn's. I can actually get a 10% discount and free shipping for Spohn parts through my installer, TT Performance.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

damon_Z, I thought this was a joke post until you mentioned the Strano Bilsteins. My God, where did you come up with all those wierd ideas? I'd suggest you do a lot more research. Sorry if I sound harsh.

Thank god you didn't post this on Corner Carvers, they tear you a new one.

I'd like to help dispell some of your thoughts, but I don't know where to begin.

damon_Z

Thanks for the reply.

Keep in mind that my approach to suspension modification is very conservative, simple, and risk-averse and is suited to meet only my goals and not anyone else's. My goals are:

- to retain the car's factory ride quality;
- buy only suspension parts that do not require ANY maintenance;
- enhance the car's handling capabilities while minimizing any loss in weight-transfer;
- buy only suspension parts that can be simply installed and forgotten (such as NON-ADJUSTABLE shocks).

After making this post, reading the replies, and further investigating my shock selection, I've realized the following:

- that an adjustable panhard rod wouldn't be such a bad upgrade in the future;
- Moog bushings are the equivalent of the 1LE bushings;
- and shocks with sufficient rebound (based on the springs that they'll dampen) will eliminate float, but will also decrease weight transfer.

You can try to dispel my thoughts on rod-ended and polyurethane suspension components and adjustable lower control arm brackets, but you might just waste your time as I'm firm on what I said regarding them. I'm also set on using my factory springs and will in no way resort to using adjustable shocks such as Koni SA's and Da's.

My only open item would be my shock selection. I've realized that Sam Strano will add plenty of rebound to his Bilstein shocks to eliminate any float with my factory springs, but I've also learned (as I've listed above) that plenty of rebound will also decrease my weight transfer and will not be beneficial on the dragstrip. Therefore, I'm now considering his suggestion to just go with the $329 Bilstein HD's. I know that I'll still have some float with those shocks, but I also know that they're a whole lot better than the factory deCarbons and won't have as much rebound as the revalves.

Any suggestions, criticism, corrections, or feedback would be more helpful than none at all. Thanks in advance.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

Again, I don't know where to begin. I'll just jump in.

You will NOT have any float with the Bilsteins. I don't know where you got that info from.

The springs have nothing to do with the floaty feel, that is solely from the factory DeCarbons.

I think one of your problems is that you think the factory ride quality is good. It's not, so there is no point in trying to retain it. Better shocks will make the ride smoother and the car handle better. That's just how bad the factory shocks are.

Adjustable shocks have a huge advantage. Do you think you have to constantly adjust them? No, just try some settings until you like it and then leave it there. There is no maintenance.

You think having a grippy suspension on a street car is like being a "showy punk-*** bitch and making high-speed turns on the street!" That just doesn't make sense. Grip is good. If there were a wreck in front of you and you had to swerve or stop quickly, would you want to be in a factory F-body or one like trackbirds? Having good grip and brakes are very safety oriented things. His tires, brakes and suspension will create a much more safer car than you can imagine. Yes, you could go fast around corners, you would have that ability, but you don't have to. You could also do burnouts all up and down the street in a stock f-body like a clown, but do you, probably not. That doesn't mean you should detune or reduce the engines power. There's a saying, "It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it". That applies to power, grip, brakes, handling, etc... I just don't understand your train of thought on this subject.

If your not going to lower your car there is no need for the adjustable PHR. Firmer bushings (poly or rod ends) there will improve the handling in the rear of the car, but also require maintenance, so you may as well forget about the APHR, the 1LE part would be OK, but it will still have slop in the rear you could feel.

1LE rear control arm bushings have more bind in them than the stock rubber bushings due to their higher durometer (density).

The Moog FRONT control arm bushings are supposed to be equivalent to the 1LE. I have no idea about the rears.

One of the problems here is that your needs are pretty much different than anybody here. That's why people here are either not able to help or are going to criticise your choices. In your case, I think the best thing would be to call Sam Strano and discuss things. He may be on the road right know, I'm not sure, but your needs are pretty unique.

Seeing as how you have to have a shop do all your work, have you considered to do some things yourself? Some things are pretty easy. You mentioned changing rod ends, so I'll use that as an example. Say you have a rod ended PHR and you think they may need changing. You jack up the rear, take one bolt out and then you can wiggle the rod to check for slack. If a bushing needs to be changed, you just loosen the jam nut, unthread the old rod end, thread the new one on, tighten the jam nut and then put the bolt back in. It's not difficult at all and certainly not worth paying someone $85/hr to do it for you.

Also keep in mind that I researched suspension stuff for my car for about 1 1/2 years before I upgraded it and I still made a mistake. I got a poly APHR and now the bushings are developing slack. I should have gotten a rod ended part to make sure the axle stays centered without any slack side to side. A tiny bit of slack there can make the car feel sloppy at freeway speeds. My point is you can't expect to research for a few days and figure all this stuff out. It takes time to understand how all the parts are related. If you don't have the time, then talking to Sam would be the best bet.

WS6WRX

iTrader: (1)

I have the Moog rear arm bushings, they are solid rubber similar to the 1LE. I'm not suer about the "bind" comment in realation to poly bushings. I had poly bushings in the LCA's and switching to the Moog's was a huge improvement. This was done on Sam Strano Jr's advice and it worked. All of the bind from the poly bushings were gone but the rear was quite a bit firmer than with the stock bushings.

Personaly I think her is doing the right thing for what he wants. The changes he is making will be an improvement over stock, but doesn't sacrifice much of what he wants.

There is another point I would like to make. Any of the quality aftermarket shocks will make the ride a little firmer and this is a good thing. I just don't want to see you put in a set of Bilstein HD's and expect the same soft cushy ride as stock. Don't get me wrong here, I think you should use them, just be aware of the change it will make.

JasonWW

iTrader: (2)

I don't agree with you there. Just a shock change will make the ride smoother than stock. I never found the stock ride to be cushy, it kind of banged around and flopped like a fish out of water.

When my new shocks first arrived, I had to wait to install the fronts as they take so much time, but the rear are pretty quick, so I swapped the DeCarbons with the Koni SA at full soft. The ride quality at the rear of the car became like butta. Too smooth actually. Most of the floaty feeling went away as well. I enjoyed adding a stiffer rear spring as the handling improved, yet the ride never got as bad as when the stock shocks were back there.

jRaskell

iTrader: (1)

I think overlooking aftermarket swaybars is a big mistake. Shocks and swaybars are the two biggest improvements you can make to these cars handling without significantly compromising the ride quality. Springs are third, but will definitely affect the ride (I haven't gone with aftermarket springs myself) Poly bushings on your swaybars is really not that big a deal. I've had no problem with my LS1, and I only had them start squeaking once on me with my older 88 GTA (and that was after almost 4 years of year round driving) Lubing these bushings is pretty much cake, takes very little time. Even if it was a yearly activity, the amount of time is negligible.

Items like swaybars, control arms, and panhard bars are really pretty damn easy to swap out. Shock swaps are a little more involved, and can be quite time consuming for a novice mechanic to perform without all the right equipment. The rest though, no way I would think of paying somebody to install those items. Do those yourself and save the money for more mods.

Also, there's no mention of wheels/tires here. All this suspension work is moot without the right meats holding the road.

And finally, where'd all the hostile **** You attitude come from? **** you too.