SFCs?
TECH Senior Member
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Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Vancouver,[KITSILANO].B.C. Canada *WestCoast*
any muffler joint will weld them in--takes about 1 hour maybe-3 point are best..--do not just bolt them in--STRUT BRACE,BOXED CONTROL ARMS,ADJUSTABLE PANHARD,BETTER SWAY BARS,better SPRINGS and SHOCKS are all good things to do,and then go for any performance mods. 
...better to get your car to handle,and it will last longer and just be more enjoyable all around... 
I disagree. If you want the car to handle, good shocks are the first item. Then consider some sticky tires. SFC's or a cage should probably come before you put real stiff springs in the car though. You don't nead a strut brace period. Boxed control arms are bad for handling, don't get those. Adjustable panhard is a good idea, but don't get the one with the adjustment joint right in the middle of the bar (weak.)
I agree that handling mods are more important than power upgrades, but it's nice to have both.
I agree that handling mods are more important than power upgrades, but it's nice to have both.
Teching In
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
I just got my weld-in subs done this morning and total love it. The car feels tighter than ever. I got the box weld-in from UMI Performance. Also the guy welding them in likes them also, he has SLP's bolt in and likes the clearance of the UMI's and overall look. I like the way the car feels/handles.
Here's there link, also a sponsor: www.UMIPerformance.com
Jimmy
Here's there link, also a sponsor: www.UMIPerformance.com
Jimmy
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Definitely worth the money. I got mine done today as well and I can't wait to drive the car again just to feel the difference. I disagree about the STB....I got one on trade for my old exhaust and while not a really huge difference, the front end does feel much firmer. I did feel a difference, albeit slight. Knowing what I know now, I would do it again and would recommend both of these highly, especially the SFC's.
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Originally Posted by RelentleZ
what not a strut brace?
The same thing is true for subframe connectors, but to a lesser degree. 3rd gens benifit from them a lot more than 4th gens. GM saw that these cars were flexy and improved the design with hydro-formed parts. When you get to the point where you are swapping in 700 lb/in front springs like I have, I think you start to benefit from the SFC's. But at that point, you might want a cage which will stiffen the chassis even better. Sure, everybody says "I put them on my car and it feels great." Well, there are also people that took them off and couldn't tell a difference; you just don't see there posts that often. The ole' butt-0-meter is not very accurate. I will say this though, if you get the square tube ones, they are nice for jacking rails.
I'm going to have to agree with Cal on what he said. Don't know the man, but my experience had the same results in what knowledge he mentioned above. Oh, and not to forget I did have the SFC's installed first (1st 2-point, then 3-point) and it did seem to improve "feel" but the "feel" ended up being mostly placebo.
The real improvement on handling with a 4th gen hardtop/T-top came with upgraded spring rates with proper valvings and appropriately matched sway bars, so then I removed both sets at different times (lotsa welding and messes that were a PIA). When I operated the vehicle on a closed circuit road course, I detected absolutely no loss in times when the SFC's were removed, in fact gained some 10th's of a seconds several times.
If the chassis is definitely ragged, or a convertible that will be tracked, then SFC's should be considered. Chassis stiffness is greatly needed, but like Cal mentioned, do you need to stiffen an already very stiff chassis whilst adding more weight and losing some money?
The real improvement on handling with a 4th gen hardtop/T-top came with upgraded spring rates with proper valvings and appropriately matched sway bars, so then I removed both sets at different times (lotsa welding and messes that were a PIA). When I operated the vehicle on a closed circuit road course, I detected absolutely no loss in times when the SFC's were removed, in fact gained some 10th's of a seconds several times.
If the chassis is definitely ragged, or a convertible that will be tracked, then SFC's should be considered. Chassis stiffness is greatly needed, but like Cal mentioned, do you need to stiffen an already very stiff chassis whilst adding more weight and losing some money?
On The Tree
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Subframes don't stiffen the car! 
whatever try jacking one left front of your car without them then tell me how much the car doesn't flex. Odds are it will go quite a ways before it even begins to lift the rear of the car on the same side that's all the proof I need........
whatever try jacking one left front of your car without them then tell me how much the car doesn't flex. Odds are it will go quite a ways before it even begins to lift the rear of the car on the same side that's all the proof I need........ Sorry, that's not really what happens with the vehicle in most cases when you operate it on the street. Maybe if you're road racing, but even then you might as well spend the money on a full cage, not SFC's.
I did jack the vehicle on the front left of the vehcle on several occasions without SFC's and nothing happened with the chassis to affect it's alignment and rigidity.
How high off the ground will you need to jack one end of the vehicle in order to cause a flex?
I did jack the vehicle on the front left of the vehcle on several occasions without SFC's and nothing happened with the chassis to affect it's alignment and rigidity.
How high off the ground will you need to jack one end of the vehicle in order to cause a flex?
My own personal opinion was that these were one hell of a mod, one that I wish I had done a while ago. The "feeling" that the car is stiffer is obvious. I had creaks and rattles that stayed behind after I ran the duals out the back and they are gone now. Completely. My car flexed a lot, and it doesn't anymore. Some people may not have had the same results, but in my case, they were extremely helpful. As for the STB, once again not a huge difference, but I did notice some stiffness increase in the front end. It didn't want to twist like before, even though it was very slight. I could feel it through the steering wheel. I didn't pay for them, but I would have knowing the result that I got. A lot of people have these mods and would stand by them. Some think they are a waste of money. I am not one of these. And there's always the whole debate about wrinkling fenders for the dragracers. I can't say about that, but I am inclined to think that these would help that. Just my .02.
While the value of SFC's is debatable on a street car, there is no question that a strut tower brace is absolutely useless on a 4th gen fbody. There was even one guy that hooked up instrumentation to a STB and read back almost a zero load going through it.
But you don't have to go to those lengths to figure this out, if you take a careful look at the front suspension design. Take a look at the knuckle; it is strong and beefy at the bottom, but long and slender towards the top. The front wheel spindle is attached very close to the bottom end of it, and the other side is attaced to the K-member through a beefy LCA. There is an upper control arm, but it is quite small and stamped out of sheet metal. From this you can see that most of the cornering load goes right into the LCA and then the K-member. For any load to be applied where you are installing this STB, it would have to get there by that long, skinny knuckle pushing sideways on the small little upper A-arm. Also, that upper A-arm is not even bolted to the car; it is just pinched between two pieces of sheet metal. If you can't visualize this, take one front wheel off your car and have a close look; it will become obvious after you study it.
If you have read through all of what I typed here, I'm sure you can see that these STB's do absolutely nothing. Well I did hear one guy say he hangs his wet shop rags on them so engine heat will dry them, LOL.
I'm not saying I'm so smart that I never had one. I did run one for a couple years, until I figured all this out.
But you don't have to go to those lengths to figure this out, if you take a careful look at the front suspension design. Take a look at the knuckle; it is strong and beefy at the bottom, but long and slender towards the top. The front wheel spindle is attached very close to the bottom end of it, and the other side is attaced to the K-member through a beefy LCA. There is an upper control arm, but it is quite small and stamped out of sheet metal. From this you can see that most of the cornering load goes right into the LCA and then the K-member. For any load to be applied where you are installing this STB, it would have to get there by that long, skinny knuckle pushing sideways on the small little upper A-arm. Also, that upper A-arm is not even bolted to the car; it is just pinched between two pieces of sheet metal. If you can't visualize this, take one front wheel off your car and have a close look; it will become obvious after you study it.
If you have read through all of what I typed here, I'm sure you can see that these STB's do absolutely nothing. Well I did hear one guy say he hangs his wet shop rags on them so engine heat will dry them, LOL.
I'm not saying I'm so smart that I never had one. I did run one for a couple years, until I figured all this out.
Last edited by Cal; Nov 9, 2005 at 11:28 AM.
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
My own personal opinion was that these were one hell of a mod, one that I wish I had done a while ago. The "feeling" that the car is stiffer is obvious. I had creaks and rattles that stayed behind after I ran the duals out the back and they are gone now. Completely. My car flexed a lot, and it doesn't anymore. Some people may not have had the same results, but in my case, they were extremely helpful. As for the STB, once again not a huge difference, but I did notice some stiffness increase in the front end. It didn't want to twist like before, even though it was very slight. I could feel it through the steering wheel. I didn't pay for them, but I would have knowing the result that I got. A lot of people have these mods and would stand by them. Some think they are a waste of money. I am not one of these. And there's always the whole debate about wrinkling fenders for the dragracers. I can't say about that, but I am inclined to think that these would help that. Just my .02.
TECH Resident
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 862
Likes: 1
From: Los Angeles, CA
dont you guys search?
this one national champ guy came over and talked about how if you have crappy shox (like our stock ones) the chassis absorbs instead. thats why SFC's help. but if you just get good shocks like.. i forget.. i think either koni or bilstein, then your chassis wont take a beating in the first place.
and yeah,
a cage is a way better idea than SFCs!
unless you have alot of money and want to show off to.. who?
this one national champ guy came over and talked about how if you have crappy shox (like our stock ones) the chassis absorbs instead. thats why SFC's help. but if you just get good shocks like.. i forget.. i think either koni or bilstein, then your chassis wont take a beating in the first place.
and yeah,
a cage is a way better idea than SFCs!
unless you have alot of money and want to show off to.. who?
Originally Posted by Stone0fFire
dont you guys search?
this one national champ guy came over and talked about how if you have crappy shox (like our stock ones) the chassis absorbs instead. thats why SFC's help. but if you just get good shocks like.. i forget.. i think either koni or bilstein, then your chassis wont take a beating in the first place.
and yeah,
a cage is a way better idea than SFCs!
unless you have alot of money and want to show off to.. who?
this one national champ guy came over and talked about how if you have crappy shox (like our stock ones) the chassis absorbs instead. thats why SFC's help. but if you just get good shocks like.. i forget.. i think either koni or bilstein, then your chassis wont take a beating in the first place.
and yeah,
a cage is a way better idea than SFCs!
unless you have alot of money and want to show off to.. who?
The shocks were probably Koni SA (Single Adjustable) or Bilstein re-valves.
Konis have the advantage of being adjustable on the car, and Bilsteins have the advantage of being much cheaper. The Bils are not adjustable, but they are cheap and easy to revalve to what you need. Fbodys like a stiff front shock, but a not so stiff rear shock (stiffer than stock though.)