Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Again, no disrespect to the SOTP testimonies, no disrespect to those who like and appreciate what they have, and no disrepsect to anybody who buys and sells them, but remember what 1,000,000 "like" experiences may testify may not acutally be conclusive to their efficacy, hence they're very likely placebo (you think it's helping, but is it really helping what you need it to help?). If you want them, get them, if you like them, great, but remember that observations sometimes don't go far enough to really explain what is happening. Some F-bodies have been torn to all h***, but sometimes the owners and/or operators aren't completely candid of what happened.

I can believe the torn up chassis from much well placed HP/TQ, very high RPM launches, and severe RRing, but I'd like to know what above average street driving does this to this vehicle. I've AXed both my 3rd an 4th gen, and I can tell you that the 3rd gen needed them from the minute the vehicle left the assembly line. So far the fourth gen chassis appears to handle ~400rwhp/378rwtq SAE pretty well.

I still have all 3 of my SFC's sets that I cut off. I'm waiting to a point where they could be used in an effective manner, and I will say when we really begin performing some truly dangerous manoeuvres (we're already doing things on several closed circuit courses that are absolutely criminally forbidden on the street), I will most likely have to go all the way with a true RR safety setup (like the other test vehicle). So far, nothing on any of the chassis's has been destroyed, but some of our suspension items have.

erikthegoalie

iTrader: (29)

just buy what you want.. dam who cares...were not nascar here...we dont sign million dollar contracts to race and all...have fun with it..ya only live once...if ya dont like em sell em
done..

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Yep... that's apparently true.

And with the risk of myself being banned, you know what is said in the club and pro racing world, "let lemmings be lemmings."

sgarnett

iTrader: (1)

I have an entirely different reason for wanting SFCs - jacking. I change tires twice at every autocross, and I can see how much my 2001 chassis flexes during that operation. The doors move quite a bit, and I had to get some extra bracing brazed onto one of the exhaust hangers because the chassis twist kept tearing it out of the pipe. I think it places more strain on the chassis than it ever sees while driving. It's also a pain to jack a lowered car with the lift points buried so far underneath.

Hopefully the subframe connectors will reduce the twist some by stiffening the chassis. Even if they don't, if they allow me to jack at the center and raise the car more evenly (reducing twist) I'll call it even.

In fact, I don't care if I can feel them while driving at all.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Now that's something I have seen, though as you mention sgarnett that you need to jack the car without trying to find those points. Some have creaked like you mentioned, so the ones we have might not be that bad, but again, we need to rough ours up some more in that manner. BTW, that's that same way I used my SFC's, though I kept it in good practise not to jack too far from the factory moutning point locations. That purpose was only useful on a boxed style SFC, like the SLP ones I have.

I'd also like to add one thing about a torque arm that is somewhat popular with the RR and AX crowd, the decoupled TA. Floor mounted like some drag racing TA's, you definitely want a three point SFC to disperse the loads that are now transfered to the floorboard mounts. Again, where it's useful.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Now for a case of where they're an absolute must. Looky here:
http://www.ws6transam.org/video/taner_wild_ride.mpg

EDIT: removed 2nd link due to information links to possible non ls1tech sponsor.

(As a disclaimer, I would like to forewarn any persons who migrate to the above links that the responsbility of knowing and obeying the website policies lies with the end user, therefore please read their policies before doing anything there besides reading and searching. I am including the links for imformation and reference purposes only.)

sgarnett

iTrader: (1)

I've thought about [reinforcing] a section of the box with angle iron just to distribute the jack load a bit . It wouldn't add much weight.

I do in fact have a floor-mounted decoupled torque arm. I would say that by far the highest stress on the floor comes from scraping the brace at parking lot entrances, not driving. [edit: fatigue might be much worse for a non-decoupled short arm, which loads the floor differently and might suffer from brake hop] Too many parking lots around here have a raised dam where the sidewalk is or would be. There is often no "s" turn approach angle that completely eliminates high centering. That's another reason for wanting subframe connectors (preferably a model that does not tuck up out of sight), and for adding a doubler.

I just wish I had installed SLP SFCs before I installed the decoupled torque arm, but they aren't legal in my former class (a major reason for changing my class now). It's going to be a major pain to retrofit the SLPs.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the input. Now that you mentioned it, I did look back at the decoupled TA design and now see what you mean.

Now with what you mention sgarnett, that makes sense for what you want them for. I am assuming that you'd like the lowered clearance in order to serve as a sort of "bump brace."

Now one thing I discovered was an SFC that was a weld-in of "unconventional design." I would like to see if someone has successfully installed this type which is a through floor design. They're labour intesive and not necessarily for people who prefer "direct installation", but I like that fact that a design like that can actually go through some of the floorpan, use squarebox tubing, and cutaway some of the unused portion of the floorpan in order to shed some weight in favour of the more robust metal.

sgarnett

iTrader: (1)

BTW (in case anyone cares), last Spring I proposed that subframe connectors be allowed in the Street Prepared autocross class. I argued that they would be far more effective for keeping older cars competitive than for making newer cars more competitive. Even outside the performance car market, chassis designs are getting stiffer.

In other words, I argued that my proposal would help some of my fellow competitors more than it would help me. Am I really that stupid or altruistic? No, part of my motivation is listed above. I'm also tired of running in a nearly dead class (at the local level) because people with basic bolt ons and subframes get bumped up to a higher class they think they can't compete in, and don't come back.

In a nutshell, I've argued that subframes SHOULD be legal because they WON'T help much (on course).

Well, for a variety of reasons (not just subframes) I feel like I've beat my head on the wall long enough, and have moved on.

For autocrossing in ESP, if you agree that subframe connectors should be allowed, you should write to the SEB. I've done all I can, and it wasn't enough. If you don't agree, you really don't need to bother doing anything unless it ever gets published for member feedback, which doesn't seem likely at this point.

Cal

iTrader: (1)

Yep, as I have said before, SFC's are a good way to jack up your car, and a good way to jack you all the way from FS to SM if you autox. Period.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Apparently they're great for jacking up many things, including this whole forum.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Here's another example where a 3-point is useful:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=428340&page=2

jam01

im sure the road courses you race at are nice, but the streets are full of potholes ruts , and whatever else. even pulling into some convenient stores are a pain with there driveways. my experience is from driving camaro's on the street, and some track time(drag racing). so my opinion is they help.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Are you aware of that agressive street driving on rough roads that you mention and the constant traversing of deep dips and high bumps is what I deal with on a daily basis as well? Even so, it still isn't as rough as extreme acceleration, extreme braking, and extreme cornering that RR and sometimes AX will incur, not just chassis, but also suspension components. My vehicle is lowered approximately 1.56" (thanks to coil-overs).

If you note, I can agree with high HP drag racing, however once again if you think that SFC's will be a saviour for the traversing of these high bumps and deep dips (and there are several road berms I must traverse on a daily basis that might as well be parking berms), think again. They could serve as "bump braces" for some lowered vehicles, however as far as vibrations are concerned, you need to let the shocks (good shocks, not some poorly valved or worn out ones) do their work of abosorbing the road imperfections as that's what their purpose is. Jacking up the vehicle on one corner will put much more undue stress on the chassis, before a good five years of "devil's cove" road crud. My 148K+ miles vehicle is far from a spring chicken (and to me, that's what buying a vehicle is about).

Again, if you want them, get them, but be aware of the true physics at play, not placebo claims. I also will say if you get them, go as beefy as you can.

FUN LS1

I have 2K T/A Rag Top, and my door is already a little out of position with just bolt-ons... I'm putting SFCs on this month, maybe one two months too late

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Bingo! you have a ragtop. No it's not too late, however if you're chassis is that screwed up, you need to get it's geometry looked at, otherwise you're bracing it in it's "whacked" state. I'd look at the door hinge itself also just to make sure it's not weakening, since those hinges are notorious with letting doors sag as well.

What shocks are you using as well? If you are on the stock decarbons, you ought to consider changing them as well. Don't like to encourage people to spend money, however you should consider some quality shocks since they're are responsible for absorbing most of the road shocks and controlling the vehicle's suspension response to the road as well. Even though you need good weight distribution control during launch and brake during drag racing, your shocks need to last.

EDIT: I also read in another thread that you're trying to relocate your TA to the floorpan, so you should definitely consider the an effective 3-point SFC setup.

FUN LS1

Nice catch... I've been looking recently at the Kenny Brown convertible SFC's, which are 3-point. There are a lot of 3-points out there, but most specify Not-For-Convertibles. Doh! I hope the picture I saw on the web of KB's SFCs was the correct one... Thanks for your contributions to the board, they and the discussions they contributed to helped me understand how I needed the 3-point SFC's if I shift load from the tranny to the floor pan; now hopefully I'll be shifting it to the SFC's... I must say your evidence is reassuring to someone who wants to keep his f-Body for a long time.



PS - you've got admirable patience and restraint...

M6WS6

iTrader: (1)

I have the bolt on, but am welding them as soon as I can get my hands on a welder. I bought bolt-on's for the ease of the install at the time, but will be welding now that I have more time, figure you aint busting welded and bolted SFC's

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

No problem. You are one of the few people in this thread (and forum) who didn't misconstrue what I was trying to point out. There are many testimonies, however much of these testimonies didn't convey their facts completely. Only a few could serious support their claims. These people aren't bad people, it's everybody's freedom here to purchase and/or promote what they feel is a good product, however I wanted to really get down to their efficacy for every application, and not the "slap them on first mod, to think you're performing cure all wonders" placebo effect.

I would say that if you're looking at 3-points, you might want to go with something strong, and something that is easy to install. I have had KBDD, however I also still have my SLP 3-points, just not installed. Now Ryan from UMI is pretty good about customer support, so you might give him a call about his 3-points, and there might be a way to mount them easily to your convertible (don't remember how to remove the factory convertible SFC.)

98TADRIVER

iTrader: (36)

im going to do SFCs. i plan on getting into the 11s by end of this year. DO EM!!

Heres a link for you- SFCS