View Poll Results: Which SFC's are you using?
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SFC's Bolt-on vs Weld
05-07-2006, 02:29 PM
#141
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Originally Posted by Foxxtron
I have no problems with their's. The real problem is that there are those who aren't really looking at what's working or not. BTW, Sam is trying to tell you something NHRAMAN. I have no problem with opinions, but mere opinions aren't real fact.
BTW, I would like to see you pull this stuff over here: www.frrax.com.
Also, any driving, especially AX and RR is "real-world" driving.
BTW, I would like to see you pull this stuff over here: www.frrax.com.
Also, any driving, especially AX and RR is "real-world" driving.
05-07-2006, 02:31 PM
#142
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Guys, cool it.
SFC's aren't useless or unecessary, however they're being used to resolve something that isn' the problem. Read my posts. Ask Sam Strano who sells many SFC's. Shocks are the MOST important thing considering the majority of the NVH. Read all of the previous posts and look at the threads I linked. Make up your decision, give all of your opinons, and leave my name out.
SFC's aren't useless or unecessary, however they're being used to resolve something that isn' the problem. Read my posts. Ask Sam Strano who sells many SFC's. Shocks are the MOST important thing considering the majority of the NVH. Read all of the previous posts and look at the threads I linked. Make up your decision, give all of your opinons, and leave my name out.
05-07-2006, 02:33 PM
#143
Originally Posted by Foxxtron
The real problem is that there are those who aren't really looking at what's working or not.
05-08-2006, 05:33 AM
#147
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Originally Posted by Foxxtron
don't forget to thank the other AXer's, RRer's, and some of the highly knowledgable engineers around here as well. If you consider Koni's, you should talk to Sam Strano.
If I understand you correctly, a factory car chassis on factory suspension *may* flex a little (all within factory spec)...but the cause of the problem is not the frame, but rather the suspension not working properly. Installing subframe connectors merely takes care of the symptom and not the problem. With my T-tops on, they groan from time to time...but only going over rough bumps...not on smooth pavement. With them off, my car has ZERO rattles (*knocks on wood*). I want to improve the somewhat harsh ride anyway, so a nice set of konis should do wonders.
When I'm ready to buy, I certainly will talk to Sam.
05-08-2006, 06:09 AM
#148
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well, thanks...
I know that this thread got a little astray, however there is another point I should carry out as well. And what I previously mentioned is that when the thread starter mentioned dealership, he raised a serious question. That's why I asked those questions earlier.
To the original question, weld isn't "always" stronger than bolt-in. Here's an interesting case dealing with that:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...um-Space-Frame
(then scroll down to the lotus elise section)
Even though they're discussing a complete design from aluminium extrusion, I wonder if anyone here has tried the bolt-in method through riveting and adhesive bonding. I have seen this method before and indeed in many cases the glue and riveting yields a stronger and yet stiffer connection. Even though I stick to my original position through this thread, I too wonder about the real truth about welding always being superior, since there are problems with welding, even when performed properly. (Don't get me wrong, my welded cage in my race vehicle holds up just fine).
Heck, I might as well raise this question for those who will be using floor mounted torque arms, thus needing 3-point SFC's (that's what I mean by usage and with those type of torque arms, there's no question about that). I have seen both weld-in and bolt-in of the same style (SLP) on several of my friend's drag racing vehicles (both over 500hp) and neither made a real difference between the two. Both did their job by dispersing the loads from the floor-mounted torque arm like they're supposed to (though I think that UMI's design with the tubular steel running from the central floorpan area is one more suited towards that purpose).
I know that this thread got a little astray, however there is another point I should carry out as well. And what I previously mentioned is that when the thread starter mentioned dealership, he raised a serious question. That's why I asked those questions earlier.
To the original question, weld isn't "always" stronger than bolt-in. Here's an interesting case dealing with that:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...um-Space-Frame
(then scroll down to the lotus elise section)
Even though they're discussing a complete design from aluminium extrusion, I wonder if anyone here has tried the bolt-in method through riveting and adhesive bonding. I have seen this method before and indeed in many cases the glue and riveting yields a stronger and yet stiffer connection. Even though I stick to my original position through this thread, I too wonder about the real truth about welding always being superior, since there are problems with welding, even when performed properly. (Don't get me wrong, my welded cage in my race vehicle holds up just fine).
Heck, I might as well raise this question for those who will be using floor mounted torque arms, thus needing 3-point SFC's (that's what I mean by usage and with those type of torque arms, there's no question about that). I have seen both weld-in and bolt-in of the same style (SLP) on several of my friend's drag racing vehicles (both over 500hp) and neither made a real difference between the two. Both did their job by dispersing the loads from the floor-mounted torque arm like they're supposed to (though I think that UMI's design with the tubular steel running from the central floorpan area is one more suited towards that purpose).
05-12-2006, 01:58 PM
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Just curious if anyone with bolt ons, or wanting to get SFCs just to have them, is willing to do an experiment....
I'm not here to fuel the fire, or take a side in the debate, just propose an experiment.
Go through the entire car - interior, and exterior (including underside and underhood), and secure everything that moves in ways it shouldn't. Then drive the car again and see what it feels like.
From cleaning the interior and applying protectants, I see places all along the dash that are not secured to anything and are very easy to move (which means they will rattle), and the passenger side seatbelt is irritating too with how the metal tongue vibrates on the plastic button on the strap that holds the buckle at about shoulder height. The seatbacks themselves may vibrate/rattle as well (my grand prix's squeaks all the time when nobody is riding with me).
I can only imagine what one might find if they combed over the whole thing, top to bottom, front to back. Even including taking it all apart.
I'd be willing to bet, regardless of shocks, and without SFCs, you'd end up with one of the quietest 4th Gens out there. Adding good shocks would smooth out the ride on top of that.
I'm just curious how someone would describe the feel of the car like that (stock shocks, everything cinched down tight - and no loose cargo). Most of the people who say that SFCs are necessary, talk about rattles and squeaks. So I'm thinking if we fix the loose parts on the car, we can eliminate that from the experiment.
I'm not here to fuel the fire, or take a side in the debate, just propose an experiment.
Go through the entire car - interior, and exterior (including underside and underhood), and secure everything that moves in ways it shouldn't. Then drive the car again and see what it feels like.
From cleaning the interior and applying protectants, I see places all along the dash that are not secured to anything and are very easy to move (which means they will rattle), and the passenger side seatbelt is irritating too with how the metal tongue vibrates on the plastic button on the strap that holds the buckle at about shoulder height. The seatbacks themselves may vibrate/rattle as well (my grand prix's squeaks all the time when nobody is riding with me).
I can only imagine what one might find if they combed over the whole thing, top to bottom, front to back. Even including taking it all apart.
I'd be willing to bet, regardless of shocks, and without SFCs, you'd end up with one of the quietest 4th Gens out there. Adding good shocks would smooth out the ride on top of that.
I'm just curious how someone would describe the feel of the car like that (stock shocks, everything cinched down tight - and no loose cargo). Most of the people who say that SFCs are necessary, talk about rattles and squeaks. So I'm thinking if we fix the loose parts on the car, we can eliminate that from the experiment.
05-12-2006, 08:45 PM
#151
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Originally Posted by HPP
Just curious if anyone with bolt ons, or wanting to get SFCs just to have them, is willing to do an experiment....
I'm not here to fuel the fire, or take a side in the debate, just propose an experiment.
Go through the entire car - interior, and exterior (including underside and underhood), and secure everything that moves in ways it shouldn't. Then drive the car again and see what it feels like.
From cleaning the interior and applying protectants, I see places all along the dash that are not secured to anything and are very easy to move (which means they will rattle), and the passenger side seatbelt is irritating too with how the metal tongue vibrates on the plastic button on the strap that holds the buckle at about shoulder height. The seatbacks themselves may vibrate/rattle as well (my grand prix's squeaks all the time when nobody is riding with me).
I can only imagine what one might find if they combed over the whole thing, top to bottom, front to back. Even including taking it all apart.
I'd be willing to bet, regardless of shocks, and without SFCs, you'd end up with one of the quietest 4th Gens out there. Adding good shocks would smooth out the ride on top of that.
I'm just curious how someone would describe the feel of the car like that (stock shocks, everything cinched down tight - and no loose cargo). Most of the people who say that SFCs are necessary, talk about rattles and squeaks. So I'm thinking if we fix the loose parts on the car, we can eliminate that from the experiment.
I'm not here to fuel the fire, or take a side in the debate, just propose an experiment.
Go through the entire car - interior, and exterior (including underside and underhood), and secure everything that moves in ways it shouldn't. Then drive the car again and see what it feels like.
From cleaning the interior and applying protectants, I see places all along the dash that are not secured to anything and are very easy to move (which means they will rattle), and the passenger side seatbelt is irritating too with how the metal tongue vibrates on the plastic button on the strap that holds the buckle at about shoulder height. The seatbacks themselves may vibrate/rattle as well (my grand prix's squeaks all the time when nobody is riding with me).
I can only imagine what one might find if they combed over the whole thing, top to bottom, front to back. Even including taking it all apart.
I'd be willing to bet, regardless of shocks, and without SFCs, you'd end up with one of the quietest 4th Gens out there. Adding good shocks would smooth out the ride on top of that.
I'm just curious how someone would describe the feel of the car like that (stock shocks, everything cinched down tight - and no loose cargo). Most of the people who say that SFCs are necessary, talk about rattles and squeaks. So I'm thinking if we fix the loose parts on the car, we can eliminate that from the experiment.
05-13-2006, 08:00 PM
#152
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Haha let me add my AH I mean opinion to this mix too ) Granted I am comparing my 99 TA to my 94 Z28, but still close enough to me to be the same car for a suspension comparison. In both cars I wanted the tight cornering and good traction. I got tubular weld-on sfc's for the z28, as well as the aphr, bilsteins and eibachs, stb and f/r sways witht he poly endlinks and bushings etc. handling was awesome.. ride quality was for sh*t. Extremely harsh ride. I was told it was the springs and shocks.. shrugs.
This time around on the TA, I got the bolt on sfcs that were welded in, aphr *thought i may lower it in the future*, f/r sways, STB, and this time got lca's. No springs or shocks. Handling still feels awesome minus some rattles when at low speeds over rough or uneven pavement *possibly due to the dual rod ends lca's or maybe exhaust piping*.
Other than the noise, the ride quality is a little stiffer than stock, but at the same time it still feels somewhat cushy which makes those 250 mile trips in it comfortable. Whereas my old z28.. anything over 20 miles and damn.. you wish you had an *** pad
and back massager.
Perhaps If I ever get a third car, I will do the sways and everythign and pass on shocks/springs and sfc's to see if just phr lca and f/r sways and stb would do the trick.
As far as poor fitment issues.. mainly I have issues witht he rattling of the passenger seatbelt on the side plastic trim of the ta seats. The glove compartment doesn;t fully close.. so you see some of the light escapes when it is closed A little of that foam trim witht he one sided sticky crap sealed that up nice enough.
) Granted I am comparing my 99 TA to my 94 Z28, but still close enough to me to be the same car for a suspension comparison. In both cars I wanted the tight cornering and good traction. I got tubular weld-on sfc's for the z28, as well as the aphr, bilsteins and eibachs, stb and f/r sways witht he poly endlinks and bushings etc. handling was awesome.. ride quality was for sh*t. Extremely harsh ride. I was told it was the springs and shocks.. shrugs.This time around on the TA, I got the bolt on sfcs that were welded in, aphr *thought i may lower it in the future*, f/r sways, STB, and this time got lca's. No springs or shocks. Handling still feels awesome minus some rattles when at low speeds over rough or uneven pavement *possibly due to the dual rod ends lca's or maybe exhaust piping*.
Other than the noise, the ride quality is a little stiffer than stock, but at the same time it still feels somewhat cushy which makes those 250 mile trips in it comfortable. Whereas my old z28.. anything over 20 miles and damn.. you wish you had an *** pad
and back massager.Perhaps If I ever get a third car, I will do the sways and everythign and pass on shocks/springs and sfc's to see if just phr lca and f/r sways and stb would do the trick.
As far as poor fitment issues.. mainly I have issues witht he rattling of the passenger seatbelt on the side plastic trim of the ta seats. The glove compartment doesn;t fully close.. so you see some of the light escapes when it is closed
A little of that foam trim witht he one sided sticky crap sealed that up nice enough.
05-13-2006, 08:15 PM
#153
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Did you go with Poly biscuits on the sway bars on your 99? That makes a huge difference.
I had a very similar setup to your Z's on my 3rd gen, with poly biscuits, etc, handled nice, but fairly rough/loud ride. I think the Eibach's are basically junk, they did make my car handle better, but I can think of much better spring/shock combos than I had on that car.
In general though, I'd say it's very difficult to comare two cars. Even a pair of fourth gens. Too many variables, the #1 being Tires, which I've not seen alot of talk about in this thread. Tire composition, sidewall height, etc, etc, can account/contribute to everything we are talkling about in this thread.
I had a very similar setup to your Z's on my 3rd gen, with poly biscuits, etc, handled nice, but fairly rough/loud ride. I think the Eibach's are basically junk, they did make my car handle better, but I can think of much better spring/shock combos than I had on that car.
In general though, I'd say it's very difficult to comare two cars. Even a pair of fourth gens. Too many variables, the #1 being Tires, which I've not seen alot of talk about in this thread. Tire composition, sidewall height, etc, etc, can account/contribute to everything we are talkling about in this thread.
05-13-2006, 10:51 PM
#154
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Both are the stock tires.. gsc's vs mm forget which crap tire the ta has on it
Both are 16s. Eventually Ill get better tires when I get a new rear-end next year I hope.
Yeah I did, the 99 ta handles so nicely now.. just noisy on small bumps etc. Which in another thread is prolly due to the dual rod ends of the lca's.
Hopefully Ill see which new lcas I should get to compensate for that noise. They said I should check to make sure they are bolted-on tight enough as well.
I heard the dual poly lca's are bad for cornering and good for traction. Not sure if the poly/rod mix is less noisy than the dual rods.. hehe.. decisions decisions.
Both are 16s. Eventually Ill get better tires when I get a new rear-end next year I hope.
Yeah I did, the 99 ta handles so nicely now.. just noisy on small bumps etc. Which in another thread is prolly due to the dual rod ends of the lca's.
Hopefully Ill see which new lcas I should get to compensate for that noise. They said I should check to make sure they are bolted-on tight enough as well.
I heard the dual poly lca's are bad for cornering and good for traction. Not sure if the poly/rod mix is less noisy than the dual rods.. hehe.. decisions decisions.
05-13-2006, 10:52 PM
#155
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What other shock and springs would you go with? I thought about trying the bmr and the koni adjustable shocks. But im still uneasy about going down that road again.
